On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 23:28:57 +0000, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
Is there any part of the core OS functionality that appeals to you? Or is
it just the GUI?
On 2025/11/3 0:2:56, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 07:47:45 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The fact remains that, here in the UK, the average person, wanting
to buy a new desktop or laptop, will _only_ be offered Windows from
most sources - or Apple
I haven’t looked very hard for local sources of “white-box” laptops, but
certainly I had no problem get this custom-build workstation that I’m
using right now put together, by a local shop, without a bundled OS.
I suspect you're not "the average person" - and "a local shop" is now rare.
On Nov 2, 2025 at 4:14:49 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 21:36, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:34:31 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 20:28, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:02:04 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<1NONQ.894474$[email protected]>:
On 11/2/2025 1:59 PM, Paul wrote:My HDs are older and I am not sure I trust them.
On Sun, 11/2/2025 10:26 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Hard drives? What are those? :)
That's where you put your backups.
I have an external HDD that was my primary backup device, but I added an >>>>>> external SSD, both have my most important files. The HDD was aging >>>>>> although no signs it's going bad. But taking no chances on my files. >>>>>
Do you trust the Apple iCloud?
I do. Still, would not be bad to have a different system using for when iCloud
is down or whatever.
I also use the built-in Time Machine facility.
Do YOU run Time Machine?
I have not in FAR too long.
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 07:47:45 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The fact remains that, here in the UK, the average person, wanting
to buy a new desktop or laptop, will _only_ be offered Windows from
most sources - or Apple
I haven’t looked very hard for local sources of “white-box” laptops, but
certainly I had no problem get this custom-build workstation that I’m
using right now put together, by a local shop, without a bundled OS.
On 2025-11-02 12:14 a.m., Tyrone wrote:
On Nov 1, 2025 at 3:39:03 PM EDT, "Brock McNuggets"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2025 at 8:50:12 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10e5a7l$1ce4c$[email protected]>:
On Sat, 11/1/2025 11:25 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 10:50:10 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10e472i$122qj$[email protected]>:
On 01 Nov 2025 04:40:22 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 9:24:51 PM MST, "Tyrone" wrote
Source?
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
I’m afraid you lose points for that.
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-11-usage-is-surging-not-so-fast-heres-the-real-story/>
Fair enough. Thanks.
But then we do not know the real stats. Clearly, though, Windows is still >>>>> VERY popular.
One thing that has always impressed me, is how cost-sensitive
computer buyers are.
Say for example, you could save a penny, by accepting the 128GB hard
drive, when for that extra penny you could have 256GB.
The buyers will save the penny and accept the inferior 128GB article.
At one time, this was such a thing, that retail motherboard
prices were sorted in monotonic order, and adjusted so that
each motherboard was different from the other by... one dollar.
You would look on Newegg, down the page, and see this.
$127 MSI JoyRider12
$128 Asus SmelloRama
$129 Asrock Cucumber4
$130 DFI LuxPlus17
and so it would go, up to $250 or so.
Now, they don't do that any more, but in the days of excessive
supply, that's the ladder they managed to achieve. The idea
was, that buyers knew they wanted to "spend $129 and not a dollar more", >>>> and they would end up with a Cucumber for their effort.
So when I see a MiniPC for $250 that runs Windows 11, and
an $800 Apple product that runs the Apple OS of the day,
what does the "one rule" predict for a result ?
If a large percentage of people are buying Apple,
then we need to actually hear from them, and discover
if they are Bill Gates in disguise, or they are loons
who have lost their mind in a poker game.
I look sometimes at items that might be $20 more and
represent an advantage to someone, and I'll hear "No, No,
I couldn't do that, that's $20 more than I have to spend".
If a person will cut their own throat for $20, imagine how
adverse they would be to spending $550 too much.
There are bodies who have the knowledge we need, like
Jon Peddle Research, who report on industry trends.
Perhaps they have acquired signal, on where this blip
is coming from. Maybe the Apple machines are being
used by AI Tech Bro ? Perhaps all the interest is in
the Studio with the 512GB max RAM config ?
Paul
It's not that Mac users can't do math or have lost their minds -- it's that >>> they're doing different math. A $250 Windows mini might look like a bargain,
but it's often a short-term fling. A Mac, even at triple the price, is built
to last, stays fast for years, keeps getting updates, and actually holds value
when you're done with it.
The folks chasing those one-dollar motherboard jumps were building Franken-PCs
for fun. Mac buyers are just buying something that works and keeps working. So
sure, someone might "save" $550 on a mini-PC -- right up until they spend that
and more in time, frustration, and replacements.
Well stated. As always, you get what you pay for. TANSTAAFL.
Personally, I am WAY done with buying motherboards/drives/CPUs/video
cards/cases/RAM/cables/fans/power supplies and then assembling it all and hope
it works. Been there done that many times.
AGAIN, not everyone is poor. Once you start making some real money, all of >> that shit loses the appeal it had when you were 25 and broke.
Agreed. Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
On 11/2/25 6:47 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-02 12:14 a.m., Tyrone wrote:Building a PC sure does give you insight to what's going on in a PC so
On Nov 1, 2025 at 3:39:03 PM EDT, "Brock McNuggets"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2025 at 8:50:12 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10e5a7l$1ce4c$[email protected]>:
On Sat, 11/1/2025 11:25 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 10:50:10 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote >>>>>> <10e472i$122qj$[email protected]>:
On 01 Nov 2025 04:40:22 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 9:24:51 PM MST, "Tyrone" wrote
Source?
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
I’m afraid you lose points for that.
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-11-usage-is-surging-not-so-fast-heres-the-real-story/>
Fair enough. Thanks.
But then we do not know the real stats. Clearly, though, Windows
is still
VERY popular.
One thing that has always impressed me, is how cost-sensitive
computer buyers are.
Say for example, you could save a penny, by accepting the 128GB hard >>>>> drive, when for that extra penny you could have 256GB.
The buyers will save the penny and accept the inferior 128GB article. >>>>>
At one time, this was such a thing, that retail motherboard
prices were sorted in monotonic order, and adjusted so that
each motherboard was different from the other by... one dollar.
You would look on Newegg, down the page, and see this.
$127 MSI JoyRider12
$128 Asus SmelloRama
$129 Asrock Cucumber4
$130 DFI LuxPlus17
and so it would go, up to $250 or so.
Now, they don't do that any more, but in the days of excessive
supply, that's the ladder they managed to achieve. The idea
was, that buyers knew they wanted to "spend $129 and not a dollar
more",
and they would end up with a Cucumber for their effort.
So when I see a MiniPC for $250 that runs Windows 11, and
an $800 Apple product that runs the Apple OS of the day,
what does the "one rule" predict for a result ?
If a large percentage of people are buying Apple,
then we need to actually hear from them, and discover
if they are Bill Gates in disguise, or they are loons
who have lost their mind in a poker game.
I look sometimes at items that might be $20 more and
represent an advantage to someone, and I'll hear "No, No,
I couldn't do that, that's $20 more than I have to spend".
If a person will cut their own throat for $20, imagine how
adverse they would be to spending $550 too much.
There are bodies who have the knowledge we need, like
Jon Peddle Research, who report on industry trends.
Perhaps they have acquired signal, on where this blip
is coming from. Maybe the Apple machines are being
used by AI Tech Bro ? Perhaps all the interest is in
the Studio with the 512GB max RAM config ?
Paul
It's not that Mac users can't do math or have lost their minds --
it's that
they're doing different math. A $250 Windows mini might look like a
bargain,
but it's often a short-term fling. A Mac, even at triple the price,
is built
to last, stays fast for years, keeps getting updates, and actually
holds value
when you're done with it.
The folks chasing those one-dollar motherboard jumps were building
Franken-PCs
for fun. Mac buyers are just buying something that works and keeps
working. So
sure, someone might "save" $550 on a mini-PC -- right up until they
spend that
and more in time, frustration, and replacements.
Well stated. As always, you get what you pay for. TANSTAAFL.
Personally, I am WAY done with buying motherboards/drives/CPUs/video
cards/cases/RAM/cables/fans/power supplies and then assembling it all
and hope
it works. Been there done that many times.
AGAIN, not everyone is poor. Once you start making some real money,
all of
that shit loses the appeal it had when you were 25 and broke.
Agreed. Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
when you buy a pre-built you can be critical of what is or isn't in there.
On 11/2/25 6:47 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-02 12:14 a.m., Tyrone wrote:Building a PC sure does give you insight to what's going on in a PC so
On Nov 1, 2025 at 3:39:03 PM EDT, "Brock McNuggets"
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Nov 1, 2025 at 8:50:12 AM MST, "Paul" wrote
<10e5a7l$1ce4c$[email protected]>:
On Sat, 11/1/2025 11:25 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 10:50:10 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote >>>>>> <10e472i$122qj$[email protected]>:
On 01 Nov 2025 04:40:22 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Oct 31, 2025 at 9:24:51 PM MST, "Tyrone" wrote
Source?
https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
I’m afraid you lose points for that.
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-11-usage-is-surging-not- >>>>>>> so-fast-heres-the-real-story/>
Fair enough. Thanks.
But then we do not know the real stats. Clearly, though, Windows
is still
VERY popular.
One thing that has always impressed me, is how cost-sensitive
computer buyers are.
Say for example, you could save a penny, by accepting the 128GB hard >>>>> drive, when for that extra penny you could have 256GB.
The buyers will save the penny and accept the inferior 128GB article. >>>>>
At one time, this was such a thing, that retail motherboard
prices were sorted in monotonic order, and adjusted so that
each motherboard was different from the other by... one dollar.
You would look on Newegg, down the page, and see this.
$127 MSI JoyRider12
$128 Asus SmelloRama
$129 Asrock Cucumber4
$130 DFI LuxPlus17
and so it would go, up to $250 or so.
Now, they don't do that any more, but in the days of excessive
supply, that's the ladder they managed to achieve. The idea
was, that buyers knew they wanted to "spend $129 and not a dollar
more",
and they would end up with a Cucumber for their effort.
So when I see a MiniPC for $250 that runs Windows 11, and
an $800 Apple product that runs the Apple OS of the day,
what does the "one rule" predict for a result ?
If a large percentage of people are buying Apple,
then we need to actually hear from them, and discover
if they are Bill Gates in disguise, or they are loons
who have lost their mind in a poker game.
I look sometimes at items that might be $20 more and
represent an advantage to someone, and I'll hear "No, No,
I couldn't do that, that's $20 more than I have to spend".
If a person will cut their own throat for $20, imagine how
adverse they would be to spending $550 too much.
There are bodies who have the knowledge we need, like
Jon Peddle Research, who report on industry trends.
Perhaps they have acquired signal, on where this blip
is coming from. Maybe the Apple machines are being
used by AI Tech Bro ? Perhaps all the interest is in
the Studio with the 512GB max RAM config ?
Paul
It's not that Mac users can't do math or have lost their minds --
it's that
they're doing different math. A $250 Windows mini might look like a
bargain,
but it's often a short-term fling. A Mac, even at triple the price,
is built
to last, stays fast for years, keeps getting updates, and actually
holds value
when you're done with it.
The folks chasing those one-dollar motherboard jumps were building
Franken-PCs
for fun. Mac buyers are just buying something that works and keeps
working. So
sure, someone might "save" $550 on a mini-PC -- right up until they
spend that
and more in time, frustration, and replacements.
Well stated. As always, you get what you pay for. TANSTAAFL.
Personally, I am WAY done with buying motherboards/drives/CPUs/video
cards/cases/RAM/cables/fans/power supplies and then assembling it all
and hope
it works. Been there done that many times.
AGAIN, not everyone is poor. Once you start making some real money,
all of
that shit loses the appeal it had when you were 25 and broke.
Agreed. Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
when you buy a pre-built you can be critical of what is or isn't in there.
On 03/11/2025 01:30, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 4:14:49 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 21:36, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:34:31 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 20:28, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:02:04 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<1NONQ.894474$[email protected]>:
On 11/2/2025 1:59 PM, Paul wrote:My HDs are older and I am not sure I trust them.
On Sun, 11/2/2025 10:26 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Hard drives? What are those? :)
That's where you put your backups.
I have an external HDD that was my primary backup device, but I added an
external SSD, both have my most important files. The HDD was aging >>>>>>> although no signs it's going bad. But taking no chances on my files. >>>>>>
Do you trust the Apple iCloud?
I do. Still, would not be bad to have a different system using for when iCloud
is down or whatever.
I also use the built-in Time Machine facility.
Do YOU run Time Machine?
I have not in FAR too long.
There really is *NO* excuse for that! :-P
On Mon, 11/3/2025 3:43 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2025/11/3 0:2:56, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 07:47:45 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The fact remains that, here in the UK, the average person, wanting
to buy a new desktop or laptop, will _only_ be offered Windows from
most sources - or Apple
I haven’t looked very hard for local sources of “white-box” laptops, but
certainly I had no problem get this custom-build workstation that I’m
using right now put together, by a local shop, without a bundled OS.
I suspect you're not "the average person" - and "a local shop" is now rare. >>
Local shops are a bit more rare, but there still are some.
The BestBuy (a major chain) has some Apple tables.
The other chains are "boutique" after a fashion,
and have their own specialties. And Apple doesn't
always fit into those. The shop selling $5K to $7K laptops
are build-to-order on everything, so Apple would not
fit in there particularly. When they offer Windows, it's a
separate line item and you get the "Retail Box" version,
complete with box (if available). They don't screw around
with System Builder versions. And you pay $200 plus for that.
If you wanted a Linux or a "NoOS" box, they will do it for you.
There are no "wasted OSes" there.
The BestBuy, like other web "bazaar" sellers, is hard to
navigate at home via web browser, as you really can't figure
out what is in store or not. They never bother having a button
labeled "just show me retail store content".
If you want to categorize their Apple-Table content,
you'll pretty well have to do that in person.
Paul
On 11/2/25 6:47 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
Building a PC sure does give you insight to what's going on in a PC so
Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
when you buy a pre-built you can be critical of what is or isn't in there.
On 03/11/2025 16:32, Paul wrote:[...]
The BestBuy, like other web "bazaar" sellers, is hard to
navigate at home via web browser, as you really can't figure
out what is in store or not. They never bother having a button
labeled "just show me retail store content".
If you want to categorize their Apple-Table content,
you'll pretty well have to do that in person.
Good to know there are at least some tech areas where the UK is ahead.
The websites of most of our equivalents to BestBuy let you check actual stock numbers in local stores by entering your location.
On 2025/11/3 0:2:56, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 07:47:45 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The fact remains that, here in the UK, the average person, wanting
to buy a new desktop or laptop, will _only_ be offered Windows from
most sources - or Apple
I haven?t looked very hard for local sources of ?white-box? laptops, but certainly I had no problem get this custom-build workstation that I?m using right now put together, by a local shop, without a bundled OS.
I suspect you're not "the average person" - and "a local shop" is now rare.
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 23:28:57 +0000, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
Is there any part of the core OS functionality that appeals to you? Or is
it just the GUI?
On Nov 3, 2025 at 10:46:33 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 03/11/2025 01:30, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 4:14:49 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 21:36, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:34:31 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 20:28, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:02:04 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<1NONQ.894474$[email protected]>:
On 11/2/2025 1:59 PM, Paul wrote:My HDs are older and I am not sure I trust them.
On Sun, 11/2/2025 10:26 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Hard drives? What are those? :)
That's where you put your backups.
I have an external HDD that was my primary backup device, but I added an
external SSD, both have my most important files. The HDD was aging >>>>>>>> although no signs it's going bad. But taking no chances on my files. >>>>>>>
Do you trust the Apple iCloud?
I do. Still, would not be bad to have a different system using for when iCloud
is down or whatever.
I also use the built-in Time Machine facility.
Do YOU run Time Machine?
I have not in FAR too long.
There really is *NO* excuse for that! :-P
I need to set up my hard drives for ease of use. Cluttered work space... which
I almost never use with my laptop.
On 03/11/2025 18:16, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 3, 2025 at 10:46:33 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 03/11/2025 01:30, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 4:14:49 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 21:36, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:34:31 PM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 02/11/2025 20:28, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 2, 2025 at 1:02:04 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<1NONQ.894474$[email protected]>:
On 11/2/2025 1:59 PM, Paul wrote:My HDs are older and I am not sure I trust them.
On Sun, 11/2/2025 10:26 AM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
Hard drives? What are those? :)
That's where you put your backups.
I have an external HDD that was my primary backup device, but I added an
external SSD, both have my most important files. The HDD was aging >>>>>>>>> although no signs it's going bad. But taking no chances on my files. >>>>>>>>
Do you trust the Apple iCloud?
I do. Still, would not be bad to have a different system using for when iCloud
is down or whatever.
I also use the built-in Time Machine facility.
Do YOU run Time Machine?
I have not in FAR too long.
There really is *NO* excuse for that! :-P
I need to set up my hard drives for ease of use. Cluttered work space... which
I almost never use with my laptop.
If there is a will, there *IS* a way! ;-)
On 03/11/2025 00:00, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 23:28:57 +0000, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
Is there any part of the core OS functionality that appeals to you? Or is
it just the GUI?
I particularly like the fact that a photograph taken on my Apple iPhone
is almost instantly available for viewing on my Apple iMac and my Apple
iPad Pro.
I suspect that my use of an iMac for over 15 years has led to some familiarity with the GUI, but I can still use Linux and Microsoft
Windows too!
https://www.techradar.com/pro/windows-10-end-of-life-is-pushing-users- towards-apple-mac-devices-is-it-time-for-you-to-make-the-big-jump
Not taking sides, here, just found this interesting. It's a bit questionable given Microsoft's offer of free extended updates to Win10
if one links their MS account. Nevertheless, Win11's CPU/TPM
requirements are a bit on the stringent side, not to mention some people just don't like upgrading. Hard to blame them for considering an alternative, though I find it hard to recommend Apple which has limited- time support and high prices. Ultimately, the big question to me is whether this will further erode Windows' dominance.
https://www.techradar.com/pro/windows-10-end-of-life-is-pushing-users-
towards-apple-mac-devices-is-it-time-for-you-to-make-the-big-jump
Not taking sides, here, just found this interesting. It's a bit
questionable given Microsoft's offer of free extended updates to Win10
if one links their MS account. Nevertheless, Win11's CPU/TPM
requirements are a bit on the stringent side, not to mention some
people just don't like upgrading. Hard to blame them for considering
an alternative, though I find it hard to recommend Apple which has
limited- time support and high prices. Ultimately, the big question
to me is whether this will further erode Windows' dominance.
With Apple abandoning the Intel Macs 5 years after the M1 intro they
don't exactly have the best reputation either. Same thing happened at
the Intel transition. Both of my 8 year old HP laptops a happily running Windows 11 and getting regular updates. Thank you FLYBY11! Both have TPM
2 and Secure Boot. No such patch for a 5 year old Intel Mac.
The biggest reason I would buy pre-built is because the people working
on that machine are absolute artists when it comes to cable management. >Compared to them, anything I do is a comedy.
On 2025-11-02 6:44 p.m., David B. wrote:
On 02/11/2025 23:37, CrudeSausage wrote:
I think anyone who trusts a third-party to keep his store his data and
keep it private is a fool.
The Apple iCloud is probably the very best facility which Apple provides.
You should note that NOTHING is private if you connect your computer to
the Internet.
Sure. I will still keep my data on my own hard disk and encrypt it using
an open-source technology I can trust. It's smarter than putting it
online, with no encryption, using a password that either Microsoft,
Apple or Google has a hold of.
I could ....... but I like macOS!
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
On 11/3/2025 1:01 PM, Alan K. wrote:
On 11/2/25 6:47 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
Building a PC sure does give you insight to what's going on in a PC so when you buy a pre-built you can be critical of what is or isn't in there.
Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
I wouldn't even buy a *preassembled* box-case desktop, anymore, if I could get a mini PC from China for $190, with enough specs to run Win11 passably (and definitely Linux, if I ever move to that on it, maybe when my renewal of Norton is coming and I don't want to pay the non-introductory price, or for that matter sooner, should I get that urge overwhelmingly), the new era is here.
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and use it
well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice as you say.
I choose something else. But I respect their choice.
CrudeSausage wrote:
The biggest reason I would buy pre-built is because the people working
on that machine are absolute artists when it comes to cable management.
Compared to them, anything I do is a comedy.
I've built a lot of PC's. I've never cared about cable management,
other than to try to tuck-away excessive cable from the power supply,
for example. If main thing is that nothing interfere with the fans.
On Mon, 11/3/2025 1:40 PM, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 1:01 PM, Alan K. wrote:
On 11/2/25 6:47 AM, CrudeSausage wrote:
Building a PC sure does give you insight to what's going on in a PC so when you buy a pre-built you can be critical of what is or isn't in there.
Even if I were to remain on a PC going forward, I'm a lot more
likely to buy pre-built than to build everything from scratch. It's a
fun project if you've never done it before, but it gets old.
I wouldn't even buy a *preassembled* box-case desktop, anymore, if I could get a mini PC from China for $190, with enough specs to run Win11 passably (and definitely Linux, if I ever move to that on it, maybe when my renewal of Norton is coming and I don't want to pay the non-introductory price, or for that matter sooner, should I get that urge overwhelmingly), the new era is here.
But you can have more RAM in the boxes I assemble.
I like lots of RAM in my machines.
But RAM is not cheap right now, so I won't be building anything.
$700 for two sticks of RAM
https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-trident-z5-neo-rgb-series-128gb-2-x-64gb-ddr5-6000-pc5-48000-cas-latency-cl34-desktop-memory-black/p/N82E16820374762
This is the closest in my local currency (the "peso"). The CAS is slower on this one.
G.SKILL Trident Z5 NEO RGB 128GB (2x64GB) DDR5 6000MHz CL36 UDIMM $1,306.99
OK, now lets work out how many cans of beans that is.
CrudeSausage wrote:
The biggest reason I would buy pre-built is because the people working
on that machine are absolute artists when it comes to cable management.
Compared to them, anything I do is a comedy.
I've built a lot of PC's. I've never cared about cable management,
other than to try to tuck-away excessive cable from the power supply,
for example. If main thing is that nothing interfere with the fans.
CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-02 6:44 p.m., David B. wrote:
On 02/11/2025 23:37, CrudeSausage wrote:
I think anyone who trusts a third-party to keep his store his data and >>>> keep it private is a fool.
The Apple iCloud is probably the very best facility which Apple provides. >>>
You should note that NOTHING is private if you connect your computer to
the Internet.
Sure. I will still keep my data on my own hard disk and encrypt it using
an open-source technology I can trust. It's smarter than putting it
online, with no encryption, using a password that either Microsoft,
Apple or Google has a hold of.
Yeah, at least make the fsckers work for it!
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and use it
well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice as you say.
I choose something else. But I respect their choice.
People tend to forget that the P in PC stands for "personal
computer".
On Mon, 11/3/2025 3:43 AM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:In the UK, one to every 5-10 towns, I'd say - and they more likely to be
On 2025/11/3 0:2:56, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Sun, 2 Nov 2025 07:47:45 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
The fact remains that, here in the UK, the average person, wanting ............................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to buy a new desktop or laptop, will _only_ be offered Windows from
most sources - or Apple
I haven’t looked very hard for local sources of “white-box” laptops, but
certainly I had no problem get this custom-build workstation that I’m >>> using right now put together, by a local shop, without a bundled OS.
I suspect you're not "the average person" - and "a local shop" is now rare. >>
Local shops are a bit more rare, but there still are some.
The BestBuy (a major chain) has some Apple tables.Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
On 2025-11-03 16:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't
just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and
use it well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice as
you say. I choose something else. But I respect their choice.
But according to you, they're "brain damaged"...
...right?
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.� Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!� Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch iMac
built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Their hardware quality is superb.
This does piss Apple user off as their perfectly
functions Mac is no longer supported and even
are blocked from updating their browsers, etc..
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
This does piss Apple user off as their perfectly
functions Mac is no longer supported and even
are blocked from updating their browsers, etc..
That's an OS issue which can be resolved by changing to another one when possible. Linux is a good choice for some.
On 2025/11/4 3:57:7, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov 2025 >> 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
That's an interesting question: I've never really looked that closelyThis does piss Apple user off as their perfectly
functions Mac is no longer supported and even
are blocked from updating their browsers, etc..
That's an OS issue which can be resolved by changing to another one when >> possible. Linux is a good choice for some.
into Linux. Is it only (at core - "kernel" -) [80]x86 code, or will it
run (or does it have versions that will run) on other processors, such
as whatever Apple used to use before they switched to Intel?
On 2025/11/4 3:57:7, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov 2025
05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
enThis does piss Apple user off as their perfectly
functions Mac is no longer supported and even
are blocked from updating their browsers, etc..
That's an OS issue which can be resolved by changing to another one wh
possible. Linux is a good choice for some.That's an interesting question: I've never really looked that closely
into Linux. Is it only (at core - "kernel" -) [80]x86 code, or will it
run (or does it have versions that will run) on other processors, such
as whatever Apple used to use before they switched to Intel?
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch iMac >>> built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't have
written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
There's a lot more where that came from. Anyone who does component level repairs on them knows what a POS they can be and how poorly designed many of them actually are, internals wise. They look nice on the surface and have
the pricetag though - so it must be good right. :)
This does piss Apple user off as their perfectly
functions Mac is no longer supported and even
are blocked from updating their browsers, etc..
That's an OS issue which can be resolved by changing to another one when possible. Linux is a good choice for some.
On 11/3/2025 9:23 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-11-03 16:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't
just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and
use it well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice
as you say. I choose something else. But I respect their choice.
But according to you, they're "brain damaged"...
...right?
I decline to answer on the basis that it might incriminate myself.
On 2025-11-03 19:11, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 9:23 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-11-03 16:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't
just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and
use it well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice
as you say. I choose something else. But I respect their choice.
But according to you, they're "brain damaged"...
...right?
I decline to answer on the basis that it might incriminate myself.
Says the hypocrite with nowhere left to run...
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't think
my local town even has one of those.)
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't think
my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
If we were walking by the Sony store, their expensive tat would
be on display in the front windows. As an inducement to enter.
That's the kind of store I'm used to.
Paul
Is [Linux] only (at core - "kernel" -) [80]x86 code, or will it run
(or does it have versions that will run) on other processors, such
as whatever Apple used to use before they switched to Intel?
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't think
my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
If we were walking by the Sony store, their expensive tat would
be on display in the front windows. As an inducement to enter.
That's the kind of store I'm used to.
Paul
Le 04/11/2025 à 13:46, Paul a écrit :
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't think >>> my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
If we were walking by the Sony store, their expensive tat would
be on display in the front windows. As an inducement to enter.
That's the kind of store I'm used to.
��� Paul
Apple's approach to stores might not be familiar to older people, but
there is no doubt that it is effective. It feels like an exclusive club
that lots of sheep want to be a part of.
On 04/11/2025 18:46, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't think >>> my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
David B. wrote on 11/4/2025 3:35 PM:
On 04/11/2025 18:46, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't
think
my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
Nah. I don't think they would be able to fool paul. Let alone sell him
a "magic" mouse, or any other magic apple shit. He's an old guy, and
he's seen all these scams before at lots of circuses and medicine shows.
Hell, he probably doesn't even have an iphone telephone they could
grease for only $59.99, and if he did, he'd likely grease it up himself.
Still, I'm sure your concern is appreciated and will be considered. In fact, this made me check iTunes to see if my iphone is due for routine lubrication. But I'm still good for a few more weeks.
On 04/11/2025 22:22, Hank Rogers wrote:
David B. wrote on 11/4/2025 3:35 PM:
On 04/11/2025 18:46, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't
think
my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
Nah. I don't think they would be able to fool paul. Let alone sell
him a "magic" mouse, or any other magic apple shit. He's an old guy,
and he's seen all these scams before at lots of circuses and medicine
shows.
Hell, he probably doesn't even have an iphone telephone they could
grease for only $59.99, and if he did, he'd likely grease it up himself.
Still, I'm sure your concern is appreciated and will be considered.�
In fact, this made me check iTunes to see if my iphone is due for
routine lubrication. But I'm still good for a few more weeks.
Hank, I wasn't suggesting Paul get "fooled" by anything - I was
suggesting he actually try the hardware before dismissing it out of
hand.
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer. Whether someone
chooses to buy one is their own decision, but there's no "scam" involved
in suggesting someone test drive a product before forming an opinion
about it.
I've been around long enough to know the difference between marketing
hype and actual quality engineering. The Apple Silicon transition has produced some legitimately impressive hardware, regardless of how one
feels about the company's ecosystem or pricing.
But hey, if you prefer to make purchasing decisions based on cynicism
rather than hands-on experience, that's certainly your prerogative.
����David B.
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
On Tue, 11/4/2025 4:35 PM, David B. wrote:
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
The last Mac I owned, cost $3500. Plus I added four sticks
of RAM to it, I added a couple hard drives, a SCSI card,
an ADATA IDE card, a new video card, at peak I had four SCSI drives
in expansion boxes.
I can't really afford to play like that any more.
I have a one button Apple Mouse in the basement,
in "original plastic wrap". The hinge action was
not magical and the button would "stick" a bit when
depressed. I'd heard stories in the Mac forum, and
since I was a CAD user at the time, and using MacX (X11)
for occasional CAD work, I needed a three button
mouse anyway. The three button mouse (no scroll wheel)
was then a permanent fixture on the machine.
I've seen the new mouse, it's like a piece of sculpture
and I cannot tell the operating principle from looking
at it. Would I use such a thing ? Survey says, probably not.
I've been moving a favourite set of mice around here
for a long time, worn out mice. The Microsoft mouse
I bought, just isn't the same. I haven't shopped for
mice since really.
I have a couple Apple keyboards. The one that came with
the G4 is "shiny" and you can't read the keycaps for the
glare factor. I also have an Apple Extended II? keyboard
with ADB bus. And an ADB to USB adapter, and for fun,
I have plugged that into a PC on occasion. The "Power" button
on the keyboard does not work, on the PC.
Yeah, I have Apple products here, but the attraction just
isn't there any more. I like open standards and easy interfacing
and common methods for working between my machines, and an
Apple purchase is unlikely to tick just the right boxes for me.
That is also the reason I don't have anyones brand of
SmartPhone here. Keep the smartphone locked down so I cannot
touch *every* file ? Well then, go away and come back when
you fix that.
For equipment to get into the room, it has to adhere to the
workflow.
I don't have any docks in the room for equipment. Everything
interfaces to the things it is supposed to interface to. There are
no computers with only one I/O connector on them. There
will be no additional "$200 beige white thing" in the room, so
one elite computer can work with the other lower-class computers :-)
PCIe slots are how I correct shortcomings in computers. My daily
driver has an Intel NIC on a PCIe card, as a replacement for
the RealTek. That's why the machines must have expansion slots.
If something breaks, I patch it with a card.
Paul
David B. wrote on 11/4/2025 4:39 PM:
On 04/11/2025 22:22, Hank Rogers wrote:
David B. wrote on 11/4/2025 3:35 PM:
On 04/11/2025 18:46, Paul wrote:
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but >>>>>> washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't >>>>>> think
my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and >>>> ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
Nah. I don't think they would be able to fool paul. Let alone sell >>> him a "magic" mouse, or any other magic apple shit. He's an old guy,
and he's seen all these scams before at lots of circuses and medicine
shows.
Hell, he probably doesn't even have an iphone telephone they could
grease for only $59.99, and if he did, he'd likely grease it up himself. >>>
Still, I'm sure your concern is appreciated and will be considered.Â
In fact, this made me check iTunes to see if my iphone is due for
routine lubrication. But I'm still good for a few more weeks.
Hank, I wasn't suggesting Paul get "fooled" by anything - I was
suggesting he actually try the hardware before dismissing it out of
hand.
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer. Whether someone
chooses to buy one is their own decision, but there's no "scam" involved
in suggesting someone test drive a product before forming an opinion
about it.
I've been around long enough to know the difference between marketing
hype and actual quality engineering. The Apple Silicon transition has
produced some legitimately impressive hardware, regardless of how one
feels about the company's ecosystem or pricing.
But hey, if you prefer to make purchasing decisions based on cynicism
rather than hands-on experience, that's certainly your prerogative.
David B.
Naturally, you are free to evangelize, as are Mormons, Jehovah's witness
and Scientologists.
But hey, learn to accept it, when your prospect doesn't buy. Just wish--
them a good death in hell, and let it go :)
Nobody can asks any more of a proselytizer.
On Tue, 11/4/2025 4:35 PM, David B. wrote:
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
The last Mac I owned, cost $3500. Plus I added four sticks
of RAM to it, I added a couple hard drives, a SCSI card,
an ADATA IDE card, a new video card, at peak I had four SCSI drives
in expansion boxes.
I can't really afford to play like that any more.
I have a one button Apple Mouse in the basement,
in "original plastic wrap". The hinge action was
not magical and the button would "stick" a bit when
depressed.
I'd heard stories in the Mac forum, and
since I was a CAD user at the time, and using MacX (X11)
for occasional CAD work, I needed a three button
mouse anyway. The three button mouse (no scroll wheel)
was then a permanent fixture on the machine.
I've seen the new mouse, it's like a piece of sculpture
and I cannot tell the operating principle from looking
at it. Would I use such a thing ? Survey says, probably not.
I've been moving a favourite set of mice around here
for a long time, worn out mice. The Microsoft mouse
I bought, just isn't the same. I haven't shopped for
mice since really.
I have a couple Apple keyboards. The one that came with
the G4 is "shiny" and you can't read the keycaps for the
glare factor. I also have an Apple Extended II? keyboard
with ADB bus. And an ADB to USB adapter, and for fun,
I have plugged that into a PC on occasion. The "Power" button
on the keyboard does not work, on the PC.
Yeah, I have Apple products here, but the attraction just
isn't there any more. I like open standards and easy interfacing
and common methods for working between my machines, and an
Apple purchase is unlikely to tick just the right boxes for me.
That is also the reason I don't have anyones brand of
SmartPhone here. Keep the smartphone locked down so I cannot
touch *every* file ? Well then, go away and come back when
you fix that.
For equipment to get into the room, it has to adhere to the--
workflow.
I don't have any docks in the room for equipment. Everything
interfaces to the things it is supposed to interface to. There are
no computers with only one I/O connector on them. There
will be no additional "$200 beige white thing" in the room, so
one elite computer can work with the other lower-class computers :-)
PCIe slots are how I correct shortcomings in computers. My daily
driver has an Intel NIC on a PCIe card, as a replacement for
the RealTek. That's why the machines must have expansion slots.
If something breaks, I patch it with a card.
Paul
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 09:31:27 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Is [Linux] only (at core - "kernel" -) [80]x86 code, or will it run
(or does it have versions that will run) on other processors, such
as whatever Apple used to use before they switched to Intel?
The Linux kernel runs on about 2 dozen different major processor architectures. This includes all the architectures that Apple used at
one time or another. It was running on ARM long before macOS was.
Also, this:--
<https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=family-tree>
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
But hey, learn to accept it, when your prospect doesn't buy. Just wish
them a good death in hell, and let it go :)
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
On 11/4/2025 12:44 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:11, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 9:23 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-11-03 16:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 11/3/2025 7:37 PM, T wrote:But according to you, they're "brain damaged"...
On 11/2/25 3:28 PM, David B. wrote:
I could ....... but I like macOS!
People tend to forget that the P in PC
stands for "personal computer". Not
everyone fits into the same box. Choice
is marvelous.
David and Brock are great examples of Mac users, because they don't >>>>> just shell out unlimited cash to Apple, they buy what they need and >>>>> use it well, I don't get the preference, but that's OK, it's choice >>>>> as you say. I choose something else. But I respect their choice. >>>>
...right?
I decline to answer on the basis that it might incriminate myself.
Says the hypocrite with nowhere left to run...
If I'm trolling by attacking Mac users, you're no less trolling byYou've yet to demonstrate a single "peculiar way"...
making excuses for Apple's peculiar ways.
On Tue, 11/4/2025 4:35 PM, David B. wrote:
Instead of griping, may I suggest that you actually enter the store and
ask to 'play' on an Apple iMac? Use a 'Magic Mouse' to do so too.
I suspect you will be pleasantly surprised, Paul.
The last Mac I owned, cost $3500. Plus I added four sticks
of RAM to it, I added a couple hard drives, a SCSI card,
an ADATA IDE card, a new video card, at peak I had four SCSI drives
in expansion boxes.
I can't really afford to play like that any more.
I have a one button Apple Mouse in the basement,
in "original plastic wrap". The hinge action was
not magical and the button would "stick" a bit when
depressed. I'd heard stories in the Mac forum, and
since I was a CAD user at the time, and using MacX (X11)
for occasional CAD work, I needed a three button
mouse anyway. The three button mouse (no scroll wheel)
was then a permanent fixture on the machine.
I've seen the new mouse, it's like a piece of sculpture
and I cannot tell the operating principle from looking
at it. Would I use such a thing ? Survey says, probably not.
I've been moving a favourite set of mice around here
for a long time, worn out mice. The Microsoft mouse
I bought, just isn't the same. I haven't shopped for
mice since really.
I have a couple Apple keyboards. The one that came with
the G4 is "shiny" and you can't read the keycaps for the
glare factor. I also have an Apple Extended II? keyboard
with ADB bus. And an ADB to USB adapter, and for fun,
I have plugged that into a PC on occasion. The "Power" button
on the keyboard does not work, on the PC.
Yeah, I have Apple products here, but the attraction just
isn't there any more. I like open standards and easy interfacing
and common methods for working between my machines, and an
Apple purchase is unlikely to tick just the right boxes for me.
That is also the reason I don't have anyones brand of
SmartPhone here. Keep the smartphone locked down so I cannot
touch *every* file ? Well then, go away and come back when
you fix that.
For equipment to get into the room, it has to adhere to the
workflow.
I don't have any docks in the room for equipment. Everything
interfaces to the things it is supposed to interface to. There are
no computers with only one I/O connector on them. There
will be no additional "$200 beige white thing" in the room, so
one elite computer can work with the other lower-class computers :-)
PCIe slots are how I correct shortcomings in computers. My daily
driver has an Intel NIC on a PCIe card, as a replacement for
the RealTek. That's why the machines must have expansion slots.
If something breaks, I patch it with a card.
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are
monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a unified architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster bandwidth to the RAM, and
lower power consumption. In the end you need less RAM... *but* that does not discount the fact it does sorta suck to not be able to upgrade it later.
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/4/2025 6:20 PM:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are >>> monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a unified >> architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster bandwidth to the RAM, and
lower power consumption. In the end you need less RAM... *but* that does not >> discount the fact it does sorta suck to not be able to upgrade it later.
You can't install linux on it?
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that
you know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the
better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a
long-time Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are
monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a
unified architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster
bandwidth to the RAM, and lower power consumption.
On 05 Nov 2025 00:20:04 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are
monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a
unified architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster
bandwidth to the RAM, and lower power consumption.
They used to have a product called the Mac Pro, targeted at the content-creation workstation market. It had expansion slots and loads
of configuration options, to make it adaptable to a variety of
different workloads.
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but >> it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov
2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch
iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
CrudeSausage wrote on 11/4/2025 1:18 PM:
Le 04/11/2025 � 13:46, Paul a écrit� :
On Mon, 11/3/2025 9:58 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
Here we only have one major chain - who also sell not only TVs but
washing machines. (Apart from Apple shops themselves - and I don't
think my local town even has one of those.)
There is an Apple store in the mall near me, but I discount that
as a computer store, because there is nothing "computer-store-like"
about it. Just a lot of people milling about getting their
iPhone greased or something :-)
If we were walking by the Sony store, their expensive tat would
be on display in the front windows. As an inducement to enter.
That's the kind of store I'm used to.
Paul
Apple's approach to stores might not be familiar to older people, but
there is no doubt that it is effective. It feels like an exclusive club
that lots of sheep want to be a part of.
Indeed! They are the only place that has a GENIUS bar. All the best
booze from cupertino.
On 05 Nov 2025 03:01:00 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
The specs look better than I expected ... except for the lack of AI <https://www.theverge.com/news/798775/nvidia-spark-personal-ai-supercomputer>.
... but not generally what Apple focuses on.
On Nov 4, 2025 at 6:36:18 PM MST, "Hank Rogers" wrote <10ee9mj$31in$[email protected]>:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
* Before the resurrection: Linux (humble, faithful, open-source).
* During ministry: macOS (great design, strong messaging).
* After resurrection: Windows (crashes, reboots, then claims victory).
---
(The above is from ChatGPT)
On 05/11/2025 01:40, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 6:36:18 PM MST, "Hank Rogers" wrote <10ee9mj$31in$[email protected]>:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so
that you know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the
better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a
long-time Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
* Before the resurrection: Linux (humble, faithful, open-source). *
During ministry: macOS (great design, strong messaging). * After resurrection: Windows (crashes, reboots, then claims victory).
---
(The above is from ChatGPT)
Perhaps you should educate ChatGPT (and take this on board yourself!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_take_the_name_of_the_Lord_thy_God_in_vain
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
On 05 Nov 2025 00:20:04 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are
monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a
unified architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster
bandwidth to the RAM, and lower power consumption.
They used to have a product called the Mac Pro, targeted at the
content-creation workstation market. It had expansion slots and loads
of configuration options, to make it adaptable to a variety of
different workloads.
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but >> it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
<https://www.theverge.com/news/798775/nvidia-spark-personal-ai-supercomputer>.
chrisv wrote:
I've built a lot of PC's. I've never cared about cable management,
other than to try to tuck-away excessive cable from the power supply,
for example. If main thing is that nothing interfere with the fans.
I'm the same way, but these technicians are artists when it comes to
cable management. They do such a stellar job that I actually feel dumb
for building this stuff on my own.
Besides, the appeal of having a
gigantic tower making tons of noise when you turn it on and drawing
loads of electricity isn't what it used to be.
On 05 Nov 2025 00:20:04 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 5:03:07 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ee47r$1mf2$[email protected]>:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are
monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
It is a shame you cannot upgrade it... the tradeoff being you get a
unified architecture where the GPU has faster access, faster
bandwidth to the RAM, and lower power consumption.
They used to have a product called the Mac Pro, targeted at the content-creation workstation market. It had expansion slots and loads
of configuration options, to make it adaptable to a variety of
different workloads.
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025 17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov
2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch
iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing,
just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due
to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on
the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a
real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and
that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to
have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did
no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was
all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order. And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3 internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over
what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for
you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck
user interface - it's just my opinion coming from desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part; DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who
don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot. We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with) I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north
south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual
PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs (including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat
my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from
the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple
was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I
don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect
by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much - but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down
pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't
spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan!
On 05 Nov 2025 06:26:32 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
... but not generally what Apple focuses on.
Everybody else is trying to jump on the AI bandwagon. Apple is currently being seen as a laggard on this.
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025 17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov
2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch
iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing,
just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due
to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on
the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a
real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and
that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to
have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did
no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was
all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order. And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3 internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over
what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for
you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck
user interface - it's just my opinion coming from desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part; DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who
don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot. We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with) I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north
south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual
PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs (including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat
my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from
the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple
was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I
don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect
by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much - but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down
pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't
spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan!
On 05/11/2025 01:40, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 6:36:18 PM MST, "Hank Rogers" wrote
<10ee9mj$31in$[email protected]>:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you >>>>> know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time >>>> Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
* Before the resurrection: Linux (humble, faithful, open-source).
* During ministry: macOS (great design, strong messaging).
* After resurrection: Windows (crashes, reboots, then claims victory).
---
(The above is from ChatGPT)
Perhaps you should educate ChatGPT (and take this on board yourself!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_take_the_name_of_the_Lord_thy_God_in_vain
I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. 🙂
On 05/11/2025 05:47, Gremlin wrote:
I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. 🙂
Hey! 🙂 Me too!
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote <[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025 >> 17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov
2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't >>>> have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a
fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing,
just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the >> first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now
dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You
can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any >> other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult >> if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due
to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power
circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on
the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and >> short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a
real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and
that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to
have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's
Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did
no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was
all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order. >> And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my
service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it >> as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of
them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they
didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3
internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The >> power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard >> either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to >> replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting
whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in
multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and >> get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to
replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the
alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and >> have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over
what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for
you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state
hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not >> only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly
designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from >> a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck
user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to >> PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos
from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part;
DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than >> covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event >> you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who
don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as
color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We
actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot. >> We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat >> black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS
programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the
lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors
worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf >> from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with) >> I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north
south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things
actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent >> rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a >> Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual
PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the
majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it >> was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat
my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from
the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted
floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to >> get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple
was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's >> presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I
don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a
typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are
internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect
by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical
Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much - >> but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down
pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so
called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the >> loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for >> it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't
spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures: There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
On 11/5/25 11:34 AM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 05:47, Gremlin wrote:
I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. 🙂
Hey! 🙂 Me too!
Are you a cat?
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov
2025
17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still
functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you
wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a >>> fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing,
just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos
like the
first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will
now
dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard -
You
can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could
nearly any
other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts
difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due >>> to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd
find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power
circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on >>> the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to
fail and
short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a >>> real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and >>> that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to
have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But
that's
Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did >>> no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was >>> all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working
order.
And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my
service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they
lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to
make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of >>> them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine
over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they >>> didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can
support 3
internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into
place. The
power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the
mainboard
either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not
have to
replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting
whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in >>> multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component
out and
get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to
replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality
work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the >>> alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will
fail and
have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over
what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for
you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid
state
hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you
to not
only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly
designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts
from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck
user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from
DrDos to
PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with
Freedos
from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most
part;
DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more
than
covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most
part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the
event
you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who
don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as
well as
color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We >>> actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom
robot.
We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a
big fat
black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS >>> programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the >>> lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We
learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors >>> worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits
(back emf
from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt
with)
I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north
south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast
when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things
actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly
decent
rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1
machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake
buying a
Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual
PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the
majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person.
When it
was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with
the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat >>> my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from >>> the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted
floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more
prodding to
get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple >>> was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer
that's
presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I
don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm
not a
typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they
are
internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect >>> by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical
Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as
much -
but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down
pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using
DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so
called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up
for the
loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make
up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this
from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't
spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely
prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. >> Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though >> proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily
“poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do
anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most
reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”: >> Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially
under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
On 11/5/25 11:37 AM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04
Nov 2025
17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still
functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include >>>>>> system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you
wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to >>>>> already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim.
It's a
fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing, >>>> just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos
like the
first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I
will now
dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard
- You
can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could
nearly any
other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts
difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death
due
to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd
find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power >>>> circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only
fuckup on
the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to
fail and
short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as
with a
real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple
and
that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to >>>> have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But
that's
Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It
did
no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw)
was
all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working
order.
And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my >>>> service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they
lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to
make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many
models of
them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine
over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that
they
didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can
support 3
internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into
place. The
power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the
mainboard
either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not
have to
replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting >>>> whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm
believer in
multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an >>>> exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component
out and
get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to >>>> replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality
work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when
the
alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will
fail and
have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over >>>> what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for >>>> you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end >>>> users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid
state
hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you
to not
only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly >>>> designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the
facts from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck >>>> user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from
DrDos to
PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with
Freedos
from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most
part;
DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original)
more than
covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most
part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the
event
you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who >>>> don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on >>>> it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that >>>> one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as
well as
color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade
school. We
actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom
robot.
We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a
big fat
black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the
LOGOS
programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow
the
lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We
learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how
sensors
worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits
(back emf
from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt
with)
I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north >>>> south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast
when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things >>>> actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly
decent
rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1
machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake
buying a
Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual >>>> PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the >>>> majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person.
When it
was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went
with the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and
beat
my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco >>>> and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts
from
the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted >>>> floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more
prodding to
get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy.
Apple
was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer
that's
presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I >>>> don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm
not a
typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how
they are
internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't
perfect
by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical >>>> Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as
much -
but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down >>>> pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard.
using DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills. >>>> Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so >>>> called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up
for the
loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make
up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this
from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big >>>> name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't >>>> spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day,
Alan!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely >>> prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. >>> Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs,
though
proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”: >>> That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily >>> “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do
anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most
reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”: >>> Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially >>> under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Snit Michael Glasser Brock McNuggets Prescott Parasite and Computer Guy simply copied and pasted the most favourable content he could find on
his AI-powered search engine. None of what is written above comes from him.
On 05/11/2025 16:44, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 11/5/25 11:37 AM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04
Nov 2025
17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 >>>>>>>>> inch
iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still
functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include >>>>>>> system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you
wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to >>>>>> already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim.
It's a
fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a >>>>> MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing, >>>>> just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos
like the
first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I
will now
dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard >>>>> - You
can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could
nearly any
other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts
difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible
death due
to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It >>>>> doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as
you'd find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out
power
circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an >>>>> issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only
fuckup on
the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces >>>>> right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to
fail and
short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as
with a
real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can >>>>> still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of
apple and
that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to >>>>> have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But
that's
Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter.
It did
no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part
btw) was
all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working >>>>> order.
And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my >>>>> service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and
they lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to
make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many
models of
them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new
machine over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that >>>>> they
didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the >>>>> premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can
support 3
internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into
place. The
power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the
mainboard
either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not
have to
replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting >>>>> whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm
believer in
multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you
have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component
out and
get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer >>>>> instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30 >>>>> dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly
reasonable to
replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not
quality work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car
when the
alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will
fail and
have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over >>>>> what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best >>>>> practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for >>>>> you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some >>>>> end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid >>>>> state
hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you >>>>> to not
only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data >>>>> recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as
poorly
designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the
facts from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck >>>>> user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from
DrDos to
PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with
Freedos
from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most >>>>> part;
DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original)
more than
covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most >>>>> part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in
the event
you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who >>>>> don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them >>>>> actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work
done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times
that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as
well as
color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade
school. We
actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom >>>>> robot.
We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a
big fat
black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the
LOGOS
programming language to control the robot - but it could also
follow the
lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We
learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how
sensors
worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits
(back emf
from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not
dealt with)
I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north >>>>> south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast
when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how
things
actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly >>>>> decent
rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can >>>>> recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1
machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake
buying a
Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual >>>>> PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent >>>>> the
majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person.
When it
was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went
with the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and >>>>> beat
my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing >>>>> things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my
coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts >>>>> from
the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco
formatted
floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more
prodding to
get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy.
Apple
was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer >>>>> that's
presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I >>>>> don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm >>>>> not a
typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how
they are
internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't
perfect
by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the
typical
Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as >>>>> much -
but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down >>>>> pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard.
using DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a >>>>> busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies >>>>> rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or
refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about
the so
called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up
for the
loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make >>>>> up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this
from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I >>>>> suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the >>>>> big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't >>>>> spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day,
Alan!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely >>>> prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers.
Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs,
though
proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”: >>>> That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not
necessarily “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do >>>> anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most >>>> reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced —
especially under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Snit Michael Glasser Brock McNuggets Prescott Parasite and Computer
Guy simply copied and pasted the most favourable content he could find
on his AI-powered search engine. None of what is written above comes
from him.
It doesn't matter from whence the information comes - as long as it is correct.
Do you find fault with anything he said? If so, what?
So I was wrong: the problem Apple had with the MacBook Air M1 is not resolved. I think my interest in Apple's laptops is now officially over.
Thank you for your explanation. People need to know about the suicidal tendencies of Apple products.
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread
failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen
with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually
high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not
necessarily “poor quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So
“refuses to do anything” is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or
upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the
industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced
— especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 22:39:29 +0000, David B. wrote:
The M4 iMac is genuinely a fast, well-built computer.
All Apple’s machines are glorified laptops now. Their innards are monolithic, without even a way to upgrade the RAM any more.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/4/2025 6:01 PM:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2025 23:41:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
I'm not suggesting that you BUY a Mac - just *TRY* it out so that you
know, for sure, that things really HAVE changed for the better.
Ken Thompson -- you know, the mastermind behind Unix -- was a long-time
Apple fan, but not any more.
He uses Linux now.
Even Jesus switched to linux just last year.
On Nov 5, 2025 at 1:17:30 AM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10ef16q$8ldb$[email protected]>:
On 05 Nov 2025 06:26:32 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
... but not generally what Apple focuses on.
Everybody else is trying to jump on the AI bandwagon. Apple is
currently being seen as a laggard on this.
True... but I do not think they need a dedicated machine for rare /
high end stuff.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:xwIOQ.784798$[email protected] Wed, 05 Nov 2025 13:43:57 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
[snip]
So I was wrong: the problem Apple had with the MacBook Air M1 is not
resolved. I think my interest in Apple's laptops is now officially over.
It's not a problem from their perspective. It's a "feature" ROFL!
Am I right in thinking that Alan is an Apple fanboy of some kind? That's the impression I've gotten so far from reading a lot of posts between him and Joel. Fascinating stuff.
[snip]
Thank you for your explanation. People need to know about the suicidal
tendencies of Apple products.
You're welcome. Checkout the channel that video is from. He works on a lot
of Apples. And, if you're into electronics, he provides thorough
explanations as he goes.
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed,
05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
[snip]
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread
failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen
with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually
high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not
necessarily “poor quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So
“refuses to do anything” is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or
upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the
industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced
— especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
He provided no help. Infact, if you bothered to read what the AI told him,
it agrees with me concerning repair difficulty and proprietary nature of Apple. They design them this way intentionally. They don't want you being able to fix it for a little coin when they can make you buy another
machine for a lot more coin. They have the same business principle as
printer companies who use DRM to ensure you can't use an off brand or
refill cartridge.
I'll dumb this down further for you both. A logic board is far more
expensive than an IC on it. Some of the chips on the logic board are serialized. So, even if you had a matching make and model donor board to
pull a good chip from, you can't use it to fix the dead computer. This is intentional and by design. In the aforementioned video, contrary to snits
AI generated claims, the SSD died a horrible death and the computer is not feasibly repairable due to Apples shit quality design and internal layout. Oh, and you can't recover any of the data either.
No need to take my word for it David, review the video and channel it
comes from. Louise Rossmann is a highly respected electronics repair technician. You along with Snit are out of line here. :)
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Apple has no desire to change the way they do business. Forcing you to buy
a new machine when the SSD fails is a money maker for them. It's
intentional on their part. You should watch the videos I shared links to
and explore the channel. He's very knowledgeable concerning electronics
and doesn't bullshit about it. You and Snit probably didn't even know this was an issue - neither of you specializes in low level repairs like myself and Rossmann. You're end users and Apple is more than happy to continue designing their systems in this manner. You're both lemmings and don't
even realize it. ROFL!
Am I right in thinking that Alan is an Apple fanboy of some kind?
That's the
impression I've gotten so far from reading a lot of posts between him and
Joel. Fascinating stuff.
He is, but he is convinced that he is objective.
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but >> it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
On 11/4/25 10:01 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product
range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
���� https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
$7K for the base model with an *enormous* 1 TB storage, heh.� $400 more
will get you *2 TB*!!!� How exciting, Apple!� Dumb thieves.
Joel W. Crump wrote on 11/5/2025 3:30 PM:
On 11/4/25 10:01 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro†in Apple’s product
range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation†any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
$7K for the base model with an *enormous* 1 TB storage, heh. $400
more will get you *2 TB*!!! How exciting, Apple! Dumb thieves.
Lets be fair and wait for nuh-uh to respond. It could be simply that
this price is not exorbitant, but necessary, since apple supplies the
finest stuff in the universe, so naturally it costs a wee tiny bit more
than other (inferior) suppliers. It's well worth the few extra dollars
for genuine apple parts. Go ahead, you can afford it! The baby doesn't need new shoes this year.
And of course, as we all know, the proprietary nature and walled garden
is only meant to protect you, the end user. $400 for a whole terrabyte
of storage is pretty damn cheap, if it's genuine apple hardware. And
they never charge you extra for soldering it on your motherboard so you don't ever loose it!
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed,
05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
[snip]
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread
failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen
with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually
high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair. >>>>
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”: >>>> That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not >>>> necessarily “poor quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So
“refuses to do anything” is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or
upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the >>>> industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced
— especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
He provided no help. Infact, if you bothered to read what the AI told
him,
it agrees with me concerning repair difficulty and proprietary nature of
Apple. They design them this way intentionally. They don't want you being
able to fix it for a little coin when they can make you buy another
machine for a lot more coin. They have the same business principle as
printer companies who use DRM to ensure you can't use an off brand or
refill cartridge.
I'll dumb this down further for you both. A logic board is far more
expensive than an IC on it. Some of the chips on the logic board are
serialized. So, even if you had a matching make and model donor board to
pull a good chip from, you can't use it to fix the dead computer. This is
intentional and by design. In the aforementioned video, contrary to snits
AI generated claims, the SSD died a horrible death and the computer is
not
feasibly repairable due to Apples shit quality design and internal
layout.
Oh, and you can't recover any of the data either.
No need to take my word for it David, review the video and channel it
comes from. Louise Rossmann is a highly respected electronics repair
technician. You along with Snit are out of line here. :)
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Apple has no desire to change the way they do business. Forcing you to
buy
a new machine when the SSD fails is a money maker for them. It's
intentional on their part. You should watch the videos I shared links to
and explore the channel. He's very knowledgeable concerning electronics
and doesn't bullshit about it. You and Snit probably didn't even know
this
was an issue - neither of you specializes in low level repairs like
myself
and Rossmann. You're end users and Apple is more than happy to continue
designing their systems in this manner. You're both lemmings and don't
even realize it. ROFL!
I just told my barber about the problem since he owns a MacBook Pro 16.
If I can prevent him from losing his data, I'll mark that down as a win. I'll be buying machines that are well supported by Linux from now on. If every manufacturer wants to solder the components to the board, I'll be happy to buy from the one or two manufacturers who allow you to repair
and upgrade at will.
CrudeSausage wrote on 11/5/2025 2:54 PM:
Am I right in thinking that Alan is an Apple fanboy of some kind?
That's the
impression I've gotten so far from reading a lot of posts between him
and
Joel. Fascinating stuff.
He is, but he is convinced that he is objective.
Give him some time. It's probably very difficult to leave, once you've fully embraced the apple cult and started proselytizing.
Joel W. Crump wrote on 11/5/2025 3:30 PM:
On 11/4/25 10:01 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro†in Apple’s product
range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation†any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
$7K for the base model with an *enormous* 1 TB storage, heh. $400
more will get you *2 TB*!!! How exciting, Apple! Dumb thieves.
Lets be fair and wait for nuh-uh to respond. It could be simply that
this price is not exorbitant, but necessary, since apple supplies the
finest stuff in the universe, so naturally it costs a wee tiny bit more
than other (inferior) suppliers. It's well worth the few extra dollars
for genuine apple parts. Go ahead, you can afford it! The baby doesn't need new shoes this year.
And of course, as we all know, the proprietary nature and walled garden
is only meant to protect you, the end user. $400 for a whole terrabyte
of storage is pretty damn cheap, if it's genuine apple hardware. And
they never charge you extra for soldering it on your motherboard so you don't ever loose it!
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed,
05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
[snip]
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread
failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen
with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually
high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not
necessarily “poor quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So
“refuses to do anything” is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or
upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the
industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced
— especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
He provided no help. Infact, if you bothered to read what the AI told him,
it agrees with me concerning repair difficulty and proprietary nature of Apple. They design them this way intentionally. They don't want you being able to fix it for a little coin when they can make you buy another
machine for a lot more coin. They have the same business principle as
printer companies who use DRM to ensure you can't use an off brand or
refill cartridge.
I'll dumb this down further for you both. A logic board is far more
expensive than an IC on it. Some of the chips on the logic board are serialized. So, even if you had a matching make and model donor board to
pull a good chip from, you can't use it to fix the dead computer. This is intentional and by design. In the aforementioned video, contrary to snits
AI generated claims, the SSD died a horrible death and the computer is not feasibly repairable due to Apples shit quality design and internal layout. Oh, and you can't recover any of the data either.
No need to take my word for it David, review the video and channel it
comes from. Louise Rossmann is a highly respected electronics repair technician. You along with Snit are out of line here. :)
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Apple has no desire to change the way they do business. Forcing you to buy
a new machine when the SSD fails is a money maker for them. It's
intentional on their part. You should watch the videos I shared links to
and explore the channel. He's very knowledgeable concerning electronics
and doesn't bullshit about it. You and Snit probably didn't even know this was an issue - neither of you specializes in low level repairs like myself and Rossmann. You're end users and Apple is more than happy to continue designing their systems in this manner. You're both lemmings and don't
even realize it. ROFL!
Louise Rossmann
On 11/5/25 12:01 PM, David B. wrote:[well over FOUR HUNDRED LINES snipped]
On 05/11/2025 16:44, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 11/5/25 11:37 AM, David B. wrote:
"whence" _means_ "from where": if you're going to use "whence", youIt is most kind of you to help him, Brock!Guy simply copied and pasted the most favourable content he could find
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!>>> >>> Snit Michael Glasser Brock McNuggets Prescott Parasite and Computer
on his AI-powered search engine. None of what is written above comes >>> from him.
It doesn't matter from whence the information comes - as long as it is
correct.
That makes sense to me.Do you find fault with anything he said? If so, what?
Honestly, I have long considered the Apple experience to be superior to
the Windows one. However, it was never more obvious until Apple moved to
its own chips.
I had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a > decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, I
eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW. In
other words, the issue mentioned in the link not only affected MacBook > Pros but the Airs as well. I don't know if it affects any machines madePresumably it also affects those Windows machines with soldered-on
after that, but the problem seems as though it was put in there intentionally. In other words, Apple seems to have put an actual timeAs I said above, not just Apple - though those (Windows) machines were
bomb in their machines that would not only destroy your data after a
certain period of time but also force you to replace the entire unit.
Unsurprisingly, this time bomb seems to go off _after_ the warrantyYes, socketing the relevant chips would have added so little to the price.
period. As a result, it no longer matters to me if the experience is superior; the machine's longevity is crippled by default. Considering
how even the computer I am typing this on is six-years-old, it should be"16/07/11" in the case of this ideapad according to the label on the
clear that I have no desire to be forced to change a computer after the period Apple sets for me. If an SSD reaches its TBW, you should be able
to replace the SSD, not replace the machine.
On 2025/11/5 17:19:5, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 11/5/25 12:01 PM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 16:44, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 11/5/25 11:37 AM, David B. wrote:
[well over FOUR HUNDRED LINES snipped]
Sheesh, don't you guys _ever_ snip?
I've left in enough context to clarify; not snipping - unless you're answering points earlier in the conversation - just gives the rest of us
the test of spacing through hundreds of lines we've already read,
SEVERAL TIMES!
I had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a
decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, I
eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW. In
That makes sense to me.
other words, the issue mentioned in the link not only affected MacBook
Pros but the Airs as well. I don't know if it affects any machines made
Presumably it also affects those Windows machines with soldered-on
"drives" - I think they appeared during the Windows 7 era, initially
with only 32G (meaning the OS took more than half!), then 64G. (I
haven't looked in a Currys/PC World lately to see if such are still
being sold.)
after that, but the problem seems as though it was put in there
intentionally. In other words, Apple seems to have put an actual time
bomb in their machines that would not only destroy your data after a
certain period of time but also force you to replace the entire unit.
As I said above, not just Apple - though those (Windows) machines were
very much made to keep the cost down, whereas I've always considered
Apple to be expensive for the same hardware rating. (To some extent
justified by good-quality hardware, but IMO not enough to justify the
price factor - and certainly not if the above is the case.)
Unsurprisingly, this time bomb seems to go off _after_ the warranty
period. As a result, it no longer matters to me if the experience is
superior; the machine's longevity is crippled by default. Considering
Yes, socketing the relevant chips would have added so little to the price.
how even the computer I am typing this on is six-years-old, it should be
"16/07/11" in the case of this ideapad according to the label on the
bottom, so what's that - 14. And it is running (W10) fine for me
(granted, I doubt it originally had an SSD as it does now).
clear that I have no desire to be forced to change a computer after theOr RAM, screen, keyboard, or even CPU if not a laptop. (OK, _finding_
period Apple sets for me. If an SSD reaches its TBW, you should be able
to replace the SSD, not replace the machine.
one might be hard.)
On 05 Nov 2025 15:15:57 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 5, 2025 at 1:17:30 AM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ef16q$8ldb$[email protected]>:
On 05 Nov 2025 06:26:32 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
... but not generally what Apple focuses on.
Everybody else is trying to jump on the AI bandwagon. Apple is
currently being seen as a laggard on this.
True... but I do not think they need a dedicated machine for rare /
high end stuff.
These “AI workstations” for AI development, not AI consumption. Seems this development is happening primarily, possibly even exclusively, on
Linux.
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed,
05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
[snip]
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread
failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen
with all manufacturers. Apple’s logic boards are actually
high-quality multilayer designs, though proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not
necessarily “poor quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread (e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So
“refuses to do anything” is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or
upgrade. Most reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the
industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized, but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced
— especially under Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
He provided no help.
Infact, if you bothered to read what the AI told him,
it agrees with me concerning repair difficulty and proprietary nature of Apple.
On 2025-11-05 6:35 p.m., J. P. Gilliver wrote:[]
On 2025/11/5 17:19:5, CrudeSausage wrote:
No, I meant your observation made sense - i. e. that it's infuriating ifI had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a
decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, I
eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW. In
That makes sense to me.
It shouldn't make sense. In no other computer would the entire thing
have to die when a simple replacement of the storage would suffice.
Oh, did Apple do some that had that little storage?Presumably it also affects those Windows machines with soldered-on
"drives" - I think they appeared during the Windows 7 era, initially
with only 32G (meaning the OS took more than half!), then 64G. (I
haven't looked in a Currys/PC World lately to see if such are still
being sold.)
Those devices got phased out rather quickly because anyone who reviewed
them was quick to point out exactly what you did, that the operating
system took half of the storage by default. In the Apple world, such behaviour is fine; in the PC world, it deserves all the criticism it gets.
I do the same with Windows; I'd still be using 7-32 if I hadn't beenYes, socketing the relevant chips would have added so little to the price.
I don't think it would have added anything at all, to be honest. What
Apple charges for its storage shows that they're not even trying to keep
the costs down. In fact, the way their machines handle their NVMes is needlessly complex and seems to be a deliberate tactic to force the
unit's failure.
how even the computer I am typing this on is six-years-old, it should be
"16/07/11" in the case of this ideapad according to the label on the
bottom, so what's that - 14. And it is running (W10) fine for me
(granted, I doubt it originally had an SSD as it does now).
I've become quite comfortable with the idea of holding onto a machine
for almost a decade. With Linux, this is possible and the compromises necessary are less and less visible. In fact, I know that I could comfortably do what I am doing right now on a machine from 2010 using
the latest version of Linux.
clear that I have no desire to be forced to change a computer after theOr RAM, screen, keyboard, or even CPU if not a laptop. (OK, _finding_
period Apple sets for me. If an SSD reaches its TBW, you should be able
to replace the SSD, not replace the machine.
one might be hard.)
Replacing the CPU on a laptop would be fun but I understand why that one particular part of the computer is soldered down.
Honestly, I have long considered the Apple experience to be superior to
the Windows one. However, it was never more obvious until Apple moved to
its own chips.
I had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a
decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, I eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW.
On 11/5/25 11:37 AM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
2025
17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still
functions!
(Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include >>>>>> system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you
wouldn't
have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to >>>>> already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a >>>> fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing, >>>> just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos
like the
first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will
now
dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard -
You
can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could
nearly any
other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts
difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due >>>> to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd
find
in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power >>>> circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on >>>> the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to
fail and
short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a >>>> real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and >>>> that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to >>>> have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But
that's
Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did >>>> no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was >>>> all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working
order.
And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my >>>> service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they
lost
no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to
make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of >>>> them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine
over
a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they >>>> didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can
support 3
internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into
place. The
power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the
mainboard
either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not
have to
replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting >>>> whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in >>>> multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an >>>> exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component
out and
get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to >>>> replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality
work
nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the >>>> alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will
fail and
have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over >>>> what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for >>>> you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end >>>> users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid
state
hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you
to not
only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly >>>> designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts
from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck >>>> user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from
DrDos to
PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with
Freedos
from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most
part;
DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more
than
covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most
part.
I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the
event
you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who >>>> don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on >>>> it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that >>>> one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as
well as
color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We >>>> actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom
robot.
We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a
big fat
black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS >>>> programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the >>>> lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We
learned
the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors >>>> worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits
(back emf
from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt
with)
I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north >>>> south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast
when I
was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things >>>> actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly
decent
rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1
machine I
was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake
buying a
Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual >>>> PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the >>>> majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person.
When it
was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with
the
PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat >>>> my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco >>>> and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from >>>> the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted >>>> floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more
prodding to
get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple >>>> was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer
that's
presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I >>>> don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm
not a
typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they
are
internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect >>>> by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical >>>> Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as
much -
but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down >>>> pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using
DRM
to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills. >>>> Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so >>>> called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up
for the
loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make
up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this
from an
end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big >>>> name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't >>>> spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan! >>>
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely >>> prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. >>> Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though >>> proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily
“poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do
anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most
reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially
under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Snit Michael Glasser Brock McNuggets Prescott Parasite and Computer Guy simply copied and pasted the most favourable content he could find on
his AI-powered search engine. None of what is written above comes from him.
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025 >>> 17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include
system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't >>>>> have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to
already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a >>> fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing,
just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the >>> first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now >>> dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You >>> can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any >>> other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult >>> if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due >>> to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find >>> in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power
circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on >>> the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and >>> short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a >>> real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and >>> that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to
have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's >>> Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did >>> no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was >>> all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order. >>> And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my
service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost >>> no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it >>> as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of >>> them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over >>> a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they >>> didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3 >>> internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The >>> power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard >>> either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to >>> replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting
whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in >>> multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an
exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and >>> get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to
replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work >>> nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the >>> alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and >>> have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over
what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for
you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end
users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state >>> hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not >>> only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly
designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from >>> a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck
user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to >>> PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos >>> from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part; >>> DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than >>> covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part. >>> I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event >>> you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who
don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on
it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that
one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as >>> color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We >>> actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot. >>> We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat >>> black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS >>> programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the >>> lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned >>> the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors >>> worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf >>> from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with) >>> I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north
south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I >>> was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things
actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent >>> rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I >>> was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a >>> Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual
PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the
majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it >>> was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the >>> PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat >>> my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco
and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from >>> the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted
floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to >>> get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple >>> was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's >>> presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I
don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a >>> typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are >>> internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect >>> by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical
Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much - >>> but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down
pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM >>> to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills.
Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so
called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the >>> loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for >>> it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an >>> end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big
name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't
spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. >> Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though >> proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and precision >> manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most
reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely >>>> prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers.
Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs,
though
proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and
integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily >>>> “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were
widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do >>>> anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and
precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most >>>> reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are
serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially >>>> under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Snit Michael Glasser Brock McNuggets Prescott Parasite and Computer Guy
simply copied and pasted the most favourable content he could find on
his AI-powered search engine. None of what is written above comes from him.
It doesn't matter from whence the information comes - as long as it is correct.
Do you find fault with anything he said? If so, what?
On 11/4/25 10:01 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
$7K for the base model with an *enormous* 1 TB storage, heh. $400 more
will get you *2 TB*!!! How exciting, Apple! Dumb thieves.
On 2025/11/5 23:46:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-05 6:35 p.m., J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2025/11/5 17:19:5, CrudeSausage wrote:
[]
I had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a >>>> decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, IThat makes sense to me.
eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW. In >>>
It shouldn't make sense. In no other computer would the entire thing
have to die when a simple replacement of the storage would suffice.
No, I meant your observation made sense - i. e. that it's infuriating if
the whole thing has to be junked for that reason.
On Nov 5, 2025 at 2:30:39 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <5mPOQ.1453299$[email protected]>:
On 11/4/25 10:01 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 7:54:35 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10eee9a$40ft$[email protected]>:
I think there might still be a “Mac Pro” in Apple’s product range, but
it can’t be considered to be a “workstation” any more ...
I wouldn't mind one:
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
Does max out at 192GB of memory. Not sure what other systems can do.
$7K for the base model with an *enormous* 1 TB storage, heh. $400 more
will get you *2 TB*!!! How exciting, Apple! Dumb thieves.
Look at the price of the wheels.
On 2025/11/5 23:46:27, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-05 6:35 p.m., J. P. Gilliver wrote:
On 2025/11/5 17:19:5, CrudeSausage wrote:
[]
I had my own MacBook Air M1 and loved it. It had a fantastic screen, a >>>> decent keyboard, spectacular battery life and so on. Nevertheless, IThat makes sense to me.
eventually learned that those units, in particular, were prone to
complete failure the moment the irreplaceable NVMe reached their TBW. In >>>
It shouldn't make sense. In no other computer would the entire thing
have to die when a simple replacement of the storage would suffice.
No, I meant your observation made sense - i. e. that it's infuriating if
the whole thing has to be junked for that reason.
Presumably it also affects those Windows machines with soldered-on
"drives" - I think they appeared during the Windows 7 era, initially
with only 32G (meaning the OS took more than half!), then 64G. (I
haven't looked in a Currys/PC World lately to see if such are still
being sold.)
Those devices got phased out rather quickly because anyone who reviewed
them was quick to point out exactly what you did, that the operating
system took half of the storage by default. In the Apple world, such
behaviour is fine; in the PC world, it deserves all the criticism it gets.
Oh, did Apple do some that had that little storage?
I suspect the sort of people who bought such machines weren't the sort
that read reviews.
[]
Yes, socketing the relevant chips would have added so little to the price. >>I don't think it would have added anything at all, to be honest. What
Apple charges for its storage shows that they're not even trying to keep
the costs down. In fact, the way their machines handle their NVMes is
needlessly complex and seems to be a deliberate tactic to force the
unit's failure.
how even the computer I am typing this on is six-years-old, it should be >>>"16/07/11" in the case of this ideapad according to the label on the
bottom, so what's that - 14. And it is running (W10) fine for me
(granted, I doubt it originally had an SSD as it does now).
I've become quite comfortable with the idea of holding onto a machine
for almost a decade. With Linux, this is possible and the compromises
necessary are less and less visible. In fact, I know that I could
comfortably do what I am doing right now on a machine from 2010 using
the latest version of Linux.
I do the same with Windows; I'd still be using 7-32 if I hadn't been
forced to use software that only runs on 10, and possibly even XP
(though that probably _was_ getting a little slow) if it hadn't died.
(Even the '98SElite machine, with its 128M of RAM, was still quite
usable, though I don't think I used it online.)>
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:xwIOQ.784798$[email protected]
Wed, 05 Nov 2025 13:43:57 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
[snip]
So I was wrong: the problem Apple had with the MacBook Air M1 is not
resolved. I think my interest in Apple's laptops is now officially
over.
It's not a problem from their perspective. It's a "feature" ROFL!
I'm sure that Alan will find a way to spin it as such. After all, he
wasn't bothered when I first alerted him to the problem.
Am I right in thinking that Alan is an Apple fanboy of some kind?
That's the impression I've gotten so far from reading a lot of posts
between him and Joel. Fascinating stuff.
He is, but he is convinced that he is objective.
[snip]
Thank you for your explanation. People need to know about the suicidal
tendencies of Apple products.
You're welcome. Checkout the channel that video is from. He works on a
lot of Apples. And, if you're into electronics, he provides thorough
explanations as he goes.
With whatever free time I have in the day, I try to view as much
Christian content as I can. I want to make sure that I get to know the
Lord as much as I can.
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
Apple has no desire to change the way they do business. Forcing you to buy >> a new machine when the SSD fails is a money maker for them. It's
intentional on their part. You should watch the videos I shared links to
and explore the channel. He's very knowledgeable concerning electronics
and doesn't bullshit about it. You and Snit probably didn't even know this >> was an issue - neither of you specializes in low level repairs like myself >> and Rossmann. You're end users and Apple is more than happy to continue
designing their systems in this manner. You're both lemmings and don't
even realize it. ROFL!
I just told my barber about the problem since he owns a MacBook Pro 16.
If I can prevent him from losing his data, I'll mark that down as a win.
I'll be buying machines that are well supported by Linux from now on. If every manufacturer wants to solder the components to the board, I'll be happy to buy from the one or two manufacturers who allow you to repair
and upgrade at will.
I first met Louise Rossmann on YouTube at least 10 years ago and have watched a fair number of his videos over the years.
(Including the ones to which you recently provided links).
He has a website too; unlike you, he's not ashamed of his background and
not fearful for his wellbeing. https://rossmanngroup.com/
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:PPOOQ.1108438$[email protected] Wed,
05 Nov 2025 20:54:07 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:xwIOQ.784798$[email protected]
Wed, 05 Nov 2025 13:43:57 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
[snip]
So I was wrong: the problem Apple had with the MacBook Air M1 is not
resolved. I think my interest in Apple's laptops is now officially
over.
It's not a problem from their perspective. It's a "feature" ROFL!
I'm sure that Alan will find a way to spin it as such. After all, he
wasn't bothered when I first alerted him to the problem.
Well, he's welcome to try doing so - but as I've already shown it wasn't a claim or really a personal opinion. What I wrote is supported by others
who also repair them for a living. We aren't end users. We know what's
under that shiny casing. <G>
With whatever free time I have in the day, I try to view as much
Christian content as I can. I want to make sure that I get to know the
Lord as much as I can.
Okay. Which group would you be affiliated with? By group I mean Baptist, Methodist, etc? Or are you independent? I had an employer who discovered
that I wasn't shall we say very religious (I'm agnostic) so he made it a point to send me to every single church client when they had a computing issue. It was usually something simple. It was his way of trying to
introduce me to his Lord. I took no offense to it. I went to sunday school
as a kid...But, being as I'm a curious and science based mindset
individual a lot of it didn't make much sense to me so I'd ask questions. Questions the preachers and pastors weren't interested in answering if
they acknowledged I'd asked one in the first place. They seemed to be of
the mindset that I and others should take whatever they say without
question. As I wrote previously, it's my nature to be very curious. I
always have questions about things. I like to learn.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:xROOQ.1108439$[email protected] Wed, 05 Nov 2025 20:55:57 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
[snip]
Apple has no desire to change the way they do business. Forcing you to buy >>> a new machine when the SSD fails is a money maker for them. It's
intentional on their part. You should watch the videos I shared links to >>> and explore the channel. He's very knowledgeable concerning electronics
and doesn't bullshit about it. You and Snit probably didn't even know this >>> was an issue - neither of you specializes in low level repairs like myself >>> and Rossmann. You're end users and Apple is more than happy to continue
designing their systems in this manner. You're both lemmings and don't
even realize it. ROFL!
I just told my barber about the problem since he owns a MacBook Pro 16.
If I can prevent him from losing his data, I'll mark that down as a win.
The best way to prevent data loss is to backup across multiple devices and
do so often. Keep some of them onsite and others offsite in the event of
fire or other catastrophic issue. Do not leave external media you intend to use for backup purposes plugged into the machine when you are not using it. I've seen several people do this when doing service calls - bad idea. If the machine suffers a catastrophic failure on the USB ports, it can ruin your external drive as well. another reason you don't want to leave the devices plugged in is if you have a malware issue - your backup media can be compromised this way.
I'm a fan of what Framework is doing with their laptops. You canI'll be buying machines that are well supported by Linux from now on. If
every manufacturer wants to solder the components to the board, I'll be
happy to buy from the one or two manufacturers who allow you to repair
and upgrade at will.
It really is a buyer beware world out there. Always check the product out before purchasing to make sure that the components which are known to fail can be replaced if you wish to do so. Vote with your wallet, of course. For me, some of the shit Apple does would be like buying a welder that is designed so that you cannot replace the cables torch or stinger. These are known to be consumable parts - they will require replacement at some point.
I won't buy welders that don't support changing out those parts. I might not like the default cables or stinger or ground clamp it shipped with. I might want to upgrade it to better ones before I strike the first rod. So, I vote with my wallet. I support companies that do right by me and encourage others to do the same.
The inbuilt CD/DVD player would only play one or the other; I can't
recall which.
At the genius bar the Apple employee told me that that was
impossible. Having anticipated this, I demonstrated with the two
discs I had taken with me. He was somewhat flummoxed and retreated
to the safety of the workshop and came back somewhat sheepishly to
report that the player had two separate infra-red disc readers -
something he had not known before.
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed, 05 Nov 2025 23:28:17 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
[snip]
I first met Louise Rossmann on YouTube at least 10 years ago and have
watched a fair number of his videos over the years.
(Including the ones to which you recently provided links).
I've known him a bit longer. <G> And unlike you, actually do understand
what he talks about. Also, unlike you, I can do the same repairs as he
shows. You wouldn't even know where to begin. You can't even perform basic troubleshooting. You've pinged me many times asking for my help. You've credited me for being spot on with the help I've provided you.
He has a website too; unlike you, he's not ashamed of his background and
not fearful for his wellbeing. https://rossmanngroup.com/
I'm not ashamed of my background either David.
I regret having written--
some code and have apologized for doing it many times, but, I'm not
ashamed of my background otherwise. You're the one who has a problem with something that was already over and done with seven years before you sent your first email to me - pretending to seek assistance with BugHunter - an antimalware tool I wrote and supported. I'm not the bad guy you've worked years trying to paint me as - as you repeatedly attempted to stalk me and violate my copyrights. I was a bad guy, but, that was years before you
ever heard of me.
You've been barking up the wrong tree since 2007 David. Do I need to
remind you that you actually reached out to me because of a specific
skillset I've got? That you wanted me to use it to break into two servers
the admins banned you from? That you repeatedly lied to me via email
trying to con me into doing it? Upto and including telling me that one of them was sending malware to unsuspecting users. You knew I was into
malware research, and of course would have accepted new samples for my program to catch. You never provided so much as a single sample or url
where the server was supposedly doing this. You *lied* to me with most of
the emails.
You tried to dox me all over usenet because you didn't think I was
responding to your emails in a manner suitable for you. As if I was on
your timeline! And you took great offense to my responding to your doxxing efforts by introducing you to what an .NFO file is as I dropped your dox inside of several releases. You did ask for it. You tried it first, David.
I just taught you a better way to do it at your expense. You certainly
didn't see that coming. Infact, you didn't think I could find you because
we aren't in the same country. You learned otherwise though, didn't ya,
David Brooks.
You also know that Malwarebytes Corp cold recruited me to come work for
them as an malware researcher. you've shared a screenshot of my real name along with the others at the time who were with the company on the about
page of it - prior to it becoming more professional looking and replacing
our individual names with Malwarebytes Corp.
If you want to bring up shit about me here, David, that's fine - but
they're going to learn exactly what you are about in the process as I
defend myself. They can google me with ease, they can google you and snit with ease too. I'll save you the trouble, ok? I'm also known as Raid/SLAM.
I am a former BlackHat and ex VXer - that's virus writer. I wrote the last virus family called IRoK (a play on words with the IROC-Z camaro) over
twenty five years ago and i've been a GrayHat since then.
Some of my malicious code made the wild list. One of them brought Toyota
corp to it's knees one weekend. Yes, the car maker. I've been written
about in Rolling Stone and online many times over for the viruses I wrote.
As well as various hacking activities. There isn't anything scene related that I haven't been involved with in some manner. Some descriptions of my viruses are still online today. I'm a co founder of an audio/video ripping and hacking group known as HHI, too.
I'm a multi cert holding computer technician. I have extensive knowledge
and experience with electronics repair at the component level. I'm also an electrician (usa based. resi/commercial and light industrial) with over 20 years experience in the trade. And, I weld too - but i'm not a
professional welder. Is that what you wanted them to know about me, David? Have I left anything important about my background out? I wouldn't want
you to accuse me of trying to mislead anyone here, after all.
On 05/11/2025 20:55, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed, >>> 05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:>>>>> Apple’s power design is >>>>> uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs.
I just told my barber about the problem since he owns a MacBook Pro 16.
If I can prevent him from losing his data, I'll mark that down as a win.
I'll be buying machines that are well supported by Linux from now on.
If every manufacturer wants to solder the components to the board,
I'll be happy to buy from the one or two manufacturers who allow you
to repair and upgrade at will.
Everyone using a computer should back up their data.
Apple provides two options to do so easily - Time Machine and the iCloud.
No data should ever be lost if hardware fails.
If the data is /important/, copies should also be stored 'off-site' as
well in case of a disaster - fire or explosion. Remember to bring up to date every week or so.
Some SSD behaviors are caused by bad firmware design.
On Wed, 11/5/2025 5:39 PM, David B. wrote:
On 05/11/2025 20:55, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-05 3:16 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Wed, >>>> 05 Nov 2025 16:37:05 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:>>>>> Apple’s power design is
uniquely prone to “wrecking” SSDs.
I just told my barber about the problem since he owns a MacBook Pro 16.
If I can prevent him from losing his data, I'll mark that down as a win. >>> I'll be buying machines that are well supported by Linux from now on.
If every manufacturer wants to solder the components to the board,
I'll be happy to buy from the one or two manufacturers who allow you
to repair and upgrade at will.
Everyone using a computer should back up their data.
Apple provides two options to do so easily - Time Machine and the iCloud.
No data should ever be lost if hardware fails.
If the data is /important/, copies should also be stored 'off-site' as
well in case of a disaster - fire or explosion. Remember to bring up to date every week or so.
Some SSD behaviors are caused by bad firmware design.
To blame power, you capture the power event on a storage scope.
Then you show people pictures of what needs to be fixed.
Bad firmware was a problem with first generation SSDs. There
was a story about Intel getting their hands on a copy of firmware
used in some other SSD, and having a "Picard FacePalm moment"
looking at the code. It is possible the details of the
faulty premise in the code, made the rounds of the
other SSD suppliers, because there was a change in
SSD quality after that. We can't say for sure it was that,
but that was the claimed back-story.
Backups are for catastrophic events. The SSD should be able
to carry out basic read/write without a problem, to be
worth backing up.
It was the same with timekeeping on a certain chipset.
Users found they could not keep clock time. Now, everyone
knows you can use an NTP time source to synchronize your
PC and "make the time correct". The problem was, the
device could not even keep time for one minute. The
speed up and slow down was present on a very tight
time scale. No amount of syncing would fix it, so you could
not write pithy rebuttals to that thread and claim
"if you only synced faster, you could fix it".
It's the same with backups. If a problem with storage happens
constantly, a bandaid is not going to fix that. Only "smooth power"
or "good firmware" will fix it -- the backup is an icing for the cake
once the cake is baked.
On Wed, 5 Nov 2025 23:28:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
The inbuilt CD/DVD player would only play one or the other; I can't
recall which.
At the genius bar the Apple employee told me that that was
impossible. Having anticipated this, I demonstrated with the two
discs I had taken with me. He was somewhat flummoxed and retreated
to the safety of the workshop and came back somewhat sheepishly to
report that the player had two separate infra-red disc readers -
something he had not known before.
Infrared laser for CDs, red laser for DVDs. Presumably all dual-media
optical drives work this way, so not surprising one laser can fail
while the other works.
On Nov 5, 2025 at 9:37:05 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <[email protected]>:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025 >>>> 17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include >>>>>> system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't >>>>>> have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to >>>>> already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a >>>> fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a
MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing, >>>> just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the >>>> first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now >>>> dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You >>>> can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any >>>> other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult >>>> if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due >>>> to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It
doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find >>>> in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power >>>> circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an
issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on >>>> the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces
right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and >>>> short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a >>>> real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can
still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and >>>> that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to >>>> have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's >>>> Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did >>>> no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was >>>> all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order. >>>> And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my >>>> service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost >>>> no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it >>>> as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of >>>> them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over >>>> a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they >>>> didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the
premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3 >>>> internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The >>>> power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard >>>> either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to >>>> replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting >>>> whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in >>>> multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an >>>> exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and >>>> get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer
instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30
dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to >>>> replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work >>>> nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the >>>> alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and >>>> have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over >>>> what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best
practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for >>>> you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end >>>> users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state >>>> hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not >>>> only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data
recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly >>>> designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from >>>> a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck >>>> user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to >>>> PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos >>>> from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part; >>>> DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than >>>> covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part. >>>> I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event >>>> you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who >>>> don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them
actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on >>>> it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that >>>> one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as >>>> color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We >>>> actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot. >>>> We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat >>>> black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS >>>> programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the >>>> lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned >>>> the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors >>>> worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf >>>> from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with) >>>> I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north >>>> south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I >>>> was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things >>>> actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent >>>> rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can
recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I >>>> was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a >>>> Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual >>>> PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the >>>> majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it >>>> was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the >>>> PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat >>>> my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing
things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco >>>> and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from >>>> the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted >>>> floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to >>>> get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple >>>> was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's >>>> presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I >>>> don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a >>>> typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are >>>> internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect >>>> by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical >>>> Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much - >>>> but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down >>>> pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM >>>> to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a
busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies
rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills. >>>> Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so >>>> called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the >>>> loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for >>>> it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an >>>> end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I
suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big >>>> name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't >>>> spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan! >>>
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers. >>> Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though >>> proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most
reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
My pleasure.
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Gremlin would not be able to present his case well. Sadly. He does have some knowledge.
Not apple. They support everything they ever sold. Forever. And it is the finest of all support programs. Some people say "It just works".
They aren't greedy like microsoft and linux. Apple products are
reasonably priced, often much cheaper than linux or microsoft stuff.
I accept what you say, Paul. Thank you. 🙂
<An aside>
Can you reach a website called www.myplubox.com ????
On 06/11/2025 03:21, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:I wonder why? First thought is something to do with wavelength - IR is
On Wed, 5 Nov 2025 23:28:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
The inbuilt CD/DVD player would only play one or the other; I can't
recall which.
At the genius bar the Apple employee told me that that was
impossible. Having anticipated this, I demonstrated with the two
discs I had taken with me. He was somewhat flummoxed and retreated
to the safety of the workshop and came back somewhat sheepishly to
report that the player had two separate infra-red disc readers -
something he had not known before.
Infrared laser for CDs, red laser for DVDs. Presumably all dual-media
optical drives work this way, so not surprising one laser can fail
while the other works.
Thank you. 🙂
I had no idea about that at the time.
I suspect that many folk reading these posts didn't know it either!
On Wed, 5 Nov 2025 23:28:17 +0000, David B. wrote:
The inbuilt CD/DVD player would only play one or the other; I can't
recall which.
At the genius bar the Apple employee told me that that was
impossible. Having anticipated this, I demonstrated with the two
discs I had taken with me. He was somewhat flummoxed and retreated
to the safety of the workshop and came back somewhat sheepishly to
report that the player had two separate infra-red disc readers -
something he had not known before.
Infrared laser for CDs, red laser for DVDs. Presumably all dual-media
optical drives work this way, so not surprising one laser can fail
while the other works.
On 2025-11-01 01:31, Hank Rogers wrote:
Not apple. They support everything they ever sold. Forever. And it >> is the finest of all support programs. Some people say "It just works".
They aren't greedy like microsoft and linux. Apple products are
reasonably priced, often much cheaper than linux or microsoft stuff.
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
On 06/11/2025 01:05, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 5, 2025 at 9:37:05 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote
<[email protected]>:
On 05/11/2025 15:12, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 4, 2025 at 10:47:16 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
Alan <[email protected]> news:10ede1k$3qhfr$[email protected] Tue, 04 Nov 2025• “Poorly designed power circuits” causing widespread failures:
17:44:20 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-03 19:57, Gremlin wrote:
T <[email protected]d> news:10e6rs9$1rr42$[email protected] Sun, 02 Nov >>>>>>> 2025 05:57:29 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 11/1/25 1:29 AM, David B. wrote:
On 01/11/2025 00:37, T wrote:
On 10/31/25 4:56 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Apple users are shit upon too.Ā Maybe more so.
Oh no fooling!Ā Try to run old software or
update Mac OS on an older, perfectly functional
machine.
Notwithstanding, I'm currently running Linux Mint 22.2 on a 24 inch >>>>>>>>> iMac built in 2008.
I also have Windows XP on an old Dell tower and that still functions! >>>>>>>>> (Well, it did, the last time I tried it!)
In 31 years of doing this, I have only seen one Apple go
defective.
Doing what specifically?
Their hardware quality is superb.
Muahahaha. Fuck! I needed a good laugh. Doing this doesn't include >>>>>>> system repairs at the component level, clearly. If it did, you wouldn't >>>>>>> have written such bullshit.
Here's a good video on that quality you speak of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cNg_ifibCQ
What specifically in there does he call out for lack of quality?
I'm not spending 15 minutes looking for what you implicitly claim to >>>>>> already know.
I do alot of the same type of work he does, so, it's not a claim. It's a >>>>> fact. The video would have answered your question. He's working on a >>>>> MacBook Pro, btw. Alan, if detailed electronics work isn't your thing, >>>>> just say so. That way I don't waste time sharing technical videos like the
first one in the future to explain things. Since you did ask - I will now >>>>> dumb the video down for you via text explanation of the highlights.
The SSD on that particular machine is *soldered* onto the mainboard - You >>>>> can't just replace it when it develops an issue. Like you could nearly any
other manufacturers machine. It also makes data recovery efforts difficult
if not impossible in the event the drive didn't die a horrible death due >>>>> to being over volted due to another shit job on the part of Apple. It >>>>> doesn't help that the SSD isn't contained as a single board as you'd find >>>>> in most other manufacturers laptops, either. A poorly thought out power >>>>> circuit is responsible for wrecking it, too. A Apple knows this is an >>>>> issue and refuses to do anything about it. This isn't the only fuckup on >>>>> the internals they've done either. They love running the power traces >>>>> right beside the data line traces. It only takes one component to fail and
short to ground and you have a huge problem as a result. Where as with a >>>>> real quality design, if a component shorts to ground, the machine can >>>>> still be repaired in most cases - it won't usually take out other
components with it. A few additional components on the part of apple and >>>>> that could have been avoided. There was no customer friendly reason to >>>>> have soldered the fucking hard drive into the machine, either. But that's >>>>> Apple for you.
An HP laptop I worked on a few months ago had a shorted diode. As a
result, it couldn't be charged or powered on with the ac adapter. It did >>>>> no other damage to the machine. Replacing the diode (a .03 part btw) was >>>>> all that was required to bring the machine back into proper working order.
And that was a surface mount diode to boot. So the customer was out my >>>>> service fee, they didn't have to replace the entire machine and they lost >>>>> no data as a result either.
Apple doesn't make the best hardware - they go out of their way to make it
as difficult to repair as they can in many cases and over many models of >>>>> them. They want you to shell out the coin to buy a brand new machine over >>>>> a fucked internal hard disk and a couple of support components that they >>>>> didn't do a very good job of laying out design wise which caused the >>>>> premature failure in the first place.
For comparison purposes, This machine is an Acer laptop; it can support 3 >>>>> internal hard drives. It doesn't have any of them soldered into place. The
power components are not half assed assembled or laid out on the mainboard
either. If the internal drive develops an issue, not only do I not have to
replace the entire computer, I can pull the drive for data recovery
efforts and replace it if necessary. As well as have a shot of getting >>>>> whatever data I didn't backup before the failure. I'm a firm believer in >>>>> multiple backups though so that's not an issue for me.
Apple also likes to serialize various chips so that even if you have an >>>>> exact make and model donor board, you can't swap the bad component out and
get back in business. No, again, they want you to buy a new computer >>>>> instead. You might be fine with replacing an entire machine over a 30 >>>>> dollar chip, I'm not. Or perhaps you think it's perfectly reasonable to >>>>> replace the computer when the HD goes? I do not. That is not quality work >>>>> nor is it consumer friendly. Imagine having to replace your car when the >>>>> alternator goes out. Or the battery. Things you already know will fail and
have to be replaced. You shouldn't have to replace the entire car over >>>>> what amounts to consumable parts. That is not quality design or best >>>>> practice for the consumer. It's great for Apple, but, not so great for >>>>> you.
and to be fair -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4pPhyhHs2Y
Same question.
That video is him covering QA over some comments left for him. Some end >>>>> users didn't understand what the problem is when you solder a solid state >>>>> hard drive onto the machines mainboard instead of soldering a
socket/interface like a normal company which would have allowed you to not
only replace the drive, but also easily remove it for potential data >>>>> recovery. In this case though, due to the power circuit being as poorly >>>>> designed as it is, the drive is ruined and the data is hosed.
Not trying to be argumentative with you, Alan. Just stating the facts from
a non end user point of view. They do have shiny cases and an odd duck >>>>> user interface - it's just my opinion coming from
desqview/os2warp/Novell/Windows/Linux/various flavors of DOS from DrDos to
PCDoS to Novell DOS to MSDOS. Hell, I even still fuck around with Freedos >>>>> from time to time despite having no real need to do so for the most part; >>>>> DosBox-X (it's not a typo, it's a port superior to the original) more than
covers my needs for a DOS environment on my linux rigs for the most part. >>>>> I still like writing some code in several DOS based languages in the event
you were wondering why I would still want anything to do with DOS.
For me Apple always seemed like a machine designed to allow people who >>>>> don't want to know or care to learn how the machine in front of them >>>>> actually does what it does - so long as they can get their work done on >>>>> it. I've never been that kind of person. I've been told many times that >>>>> one day my curiosity will be my undoing. :)
I did have access to the 2e and the gs and the black and white as well as >>>>> color Mac Classic/SEs when I attended kindergarden thru grade school. We >>>>> actually had a network of the 2es in 2nd grade to run our classroom robot.
We'd move our desks to free up the center of the classroom, draw a big fat
black line on large sheets of paper we taped together and used the LOGOS >>>>> programming language to control the robot - but it could also follow the >>>>> lines we drew as well. STEM before STEM was a thing I suppose. We learned >>>>> the basics of electronics by building the robot. Were taught how sensors >>>>> worked, motor controllers, Hbridge circuits and snubber circuits (back emf
from a brushed electric motor can be a component killer if not dealt with)
I've found via attending a variety of schools in states from the north >>>>> south and way out west that the northern education system (atleast when I >>>>> was in school) was by far the best in so far as teaching you how things >>>>> actually worked.
In high school I was exposed to the Macintosh LC. Those were fairly decent
rigs in their own right. I didn't have any real complaints that I can >>>>> recall with them. The OS was more pleasant than the Windows 3.1 machine I >>>>> was running at home and more responsive to boot. I made a mistake buying a
Cyrix powered PC as an upgrade to my 286 Tandy 3000NL (my first actual >>>>> PC); a 386DX40 would have had more cpu power.
I also had a Tandy color computer 3 at home and that's what I spent the >>>>> majority of my time on. So, for me, I wasn't ever an Apple person. When it
was time to get a "real" computer, due to having access to some PCs
(including the XT series) as well as Amiga and Commodore, I went with the >>>>> PC. Amiga would have been my 2nd choice. The commodore was okay and beat >>>>> my coco in several areas, but, I never quite liked it's way of doing >>>>> things. Probably because I was used to the way it was done with my coco >>>>> and Tandy being Tandy essentially ripped off many of their concepts from >>>>> the PC. A PC with a little prodding could read and write coco formatted >>>>> floppy disks - they were that close. It took considerably more prodding to
get the same PC to read and write to an Apple 2e formatted floppy. Apple >>>>> was always into doing things their way and their way was 'special'
compared to everyone else.
Don't get me wrong, I will work on whatever make and model computer that's
presented to me for repair, software and hardware issues alike. But, I >>>>> don't own Apple products and won't. I find them to be overpriced,
essentially garbage by comparison to a decent PC. Again though, I'm not a >>>>> typical end user. I look at them all from the perspective of how they are >>>>> internally. How the boards and components are laid out. PC isn't perfect >>>>> by any means though - I've made shitloads more money fixing the typical >>>>> Dell/HP/Compaq and Gateway rigs sold to the consumers. Apple not as much -
but in terms of shite fuck the consumer methodology, Apple has it down >>>>> pat. They put proprietary older Tandys to shame in that regard. using DRM >>>>> to ensure you can't use certain components off a donor board to get a >>>>> busted machine up and going is right up there with printer companies >>>>> rigging their cartridges to prevent you from using offbrand or refills. >>>>> Not necessary - just greed for the most part. It was never about the so >>>>> called quality of the ink or prints. It was really about making up for the
loss they took selling you the printer as cheap as they would. Make up for
it in cartridge sales by a wide margin. Again, I don't write this from an >>>>> end user pov; I write it as a multi certified computer and printer I >>>>> suppose technician who is authorized to work on the majority of the big >>>>> name printers out there.
Sorry for the long reply...You did ask me to explain what you wouldn't >>>>> spend fifteen minutes or so watching a video for. Have a good day, Alan! >>>>
There’s no consistent evidence that Apple’s power design is uniquely prone to
“wrecking” SSDs. Isolated board failures happen with all manufacturers.
Apple’s logic boards are actually high-quality multilayer designs, though
proprietary and hard to repair.
• “A real quality design wouldn’t fail this way”:
That’s subjective. Apple prioritizes thinness, compactness, and integration
over modular repairability. That’s a design tradeoff, not necessarily “poor
quality.”
• “Apple refuses to fix known design issues”:
Apple has run multiple repair or recall programs when defects were widespread
(e.g., keyboard, GPU, battery, flex cable issues). So “refuses to do anything”
is not accurate.
• “Apple doesn’t make the best hardware”:
Depends on what metric you mean. Apple uses high-end materials and precision
manufacturing, but their designs are harder to repair or upgrade. Most >>>> reviewers rate MacBook build quality near the top of the industry.
• “DRM and serialization prevent all component swaps”:
Not entirely true. Some parts (Touch ID, logic board, screen) are serialized,
but memory, batteries, and some displays can be replaced — especially under
Apple’s new Self Service Repair program.
It is most kind of you to help him, Brock!
My pleasure.
I very much doubt that he has EVER raised these matters with Apple
itself in order to help improve matters for the benefit of everyone!
Gremlin would not be able to present his case well. Sadly. He does have some >> knowledge.
I am simply dismayed by the fact that when he recognises that something
is actually wrong, unlike me, he does NOTHING to try to correct matters.
Such a waste of his talent. :-(
On Wed, 5 Nov 2025 23:59:50 -0500, Paul wrote:
Some SSD behaviors are caused by bad firmware design.
SSDs need eye-wateringly complicated firmware just to make them pretend to look like a hard drive, just so they can be compatible with brain-dead
OSes (*cough* Dimdows *cough*) that can’t support purpose-built filesystems, optimized for flash storage, that integrate wear-levelling
into the allocation algorithms.
On 11/6/25 2:08 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 5 Nov 2025 23:59:50 -0500, Paul wrote:
Some SSD behaviors are caused by bad firmware design.
SSDs need eye-wateringly complicated firmware just to make them pretend to >> look like a hard drive, just so they can be compatible with brain-dead
OSes (*cough* Dimdows *cough*) that can’t support purpose-built
filesystems, optimized for flash storage, that integrate wear-levelling
into the allocation algorithms.
I can't speak to that as such, but I do find it interesting that the
boot loader is FAT on an SSD, in Linux. Nothing bad about that, Linux
can handle NTFS itself, but a weird quirk.
On 05 Nov 2025 15:15:57 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 5, 2025 at 1:17:30 AM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote
<10ef16q$8ldb$[email protected]>:
On 05 Nov 2025 06:26:32 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
... but not generally what Apple focuses on.
Everybody else is trying to jump on the AI bandwagon. Apple is
currently being seen as a laggard on this.
True... but I do not think they need a dedicated machine for rare /
high end stuff.
These “AI workstations” for AI development, not AI consumption. Seems this development is happening primarily, possibly even exclusively, on
Linux.
On Nov 6, 2025 at 3:49:36 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote <[email protected]>:[....]
I am simply dismayed by the fact that when he recognises that something
is actually wrong, unlike me, he does NOTHING to try to correct matters.
Such a waste of his talent. :-(
Part of it is because he does not have half the talent he claims to. The quotes of his I share prove that.
On Wed, 11/5/2025 3:46 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
These “AI workstations” for AI development, not AI consumption.
Seems this development is happening primarily, possibly even
exclusively, on Linux.
The AI workstations are for self-hosted inference ("chat about your
love life with an LLM AI"), and they're not very good.
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
On 06/11/2025 14:04, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 3:49:36 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote[....]
<[email protected]>:
I am simply dismayed by the fact that when he recognises that something
is actually wrong, unlike me, he does NOTHING to try to correct matters. >>>
Such a waste of his talent. :-(
Part of it is because he does not have half the talent he claims to. The
quotes of his I share prove that.
You may well be right ..... but, just in case, you take good care of yourself!
On 06/11/2025 21:24, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
Some of us make a living from it.
*HOW*, please?
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the repair side of things?
I'm born Catholic, but I'd say that I am more of a general Christian at
this point. I have a slight scientific mind as well, so I like watching videos of "Bob" or Orlando debating people about religion at Speaker's Corner in London. You can learn a lot there. I also enjoy watching
people talk about their experience in Hell when they almost died. To say
the least, it's enough to open your mind to God. There are also
testimonies of what caretakers see when the people they take care of are nearing death or die in their presence. Some make it very clear, right before they die, that they're not going where they were hoping to go.
There was one in particular that I found interesting. A nearly immobile
old man suddenly has a powerful burst of energy and desperately clings
to his bed screaming "don't let him get me" before finally saying "he
got me" as he dies. The way I see it, that would make a believer out of anyone.
On 06/11/2025 14:04, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 3:49:36 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote[....]
<[email protected]>:
I am simply dismayed by the fact that when he recognises that something
is actually wrong, unlike me, he does NOTHING to try to correct matters. >>>
Such a waste of his talent. :-(
Part of it is because he does not have half the talent he claims to. The
quotes of his I share prove that.
You may well be right ..... but, just in case, you take good care of yourself!
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 21:28:44 +0000, David B. wrote:
On 06/11/2025 21:24, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
Some of us make a living from it.
*HOW*, please?
I do development and sysadmin work on Linux systems. Start with off-the- shelf software and hardware, add some custom configuration and scripting,
and progress from there to full-blown bespoke app development on top of
that foundation.
"David B." <[email protected]> news:[email protected] Thu, 06 Nov 2025 19:35:06 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 06/11/2025 14:04, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 3:49:36 AM MST, ""David B."" wrote[....]
<[email protected]>:
I am simply dismayed by the fact that when he recognises that something >>>> is actually wrong, unlike me, he does NOTHING to try to correct matters. >>>>
Such a waste of his talent. :-(
Part of it is because he does not have half the talent he claims to. The >>> quotes of his I share prove that.
You may well be right ..... but, just in case, you take good care of
yourself!
You know he's full of shit and is quoting out of context - just as he did when he accused me of having a copy of the floodbot.
That he later denied
doing and is now morphing the accusation that I had insider knowledge and what I wrote proves it.
Even though it doesn't. He doesn't comprehend what
he reads very well. And, Snit is a very well known liar and quite a troll.
You support him because you think you're getting under my skin by doing so.
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the
repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. It's completely
anti consumer. imo.
I'm born Catholic, but I'd say that I am more of a general Christian at
this point. I have a slight scientific mind as well, so I like watching
videos of "Bob" or Orlando debating people about religion at Speaker's
Corner in London. You can learn a lot there. I also enjoy watching
people talk about their experience in Hell when they almost died. To say
the least, it's enough to open your mind to God. There are also
testimonies of what caretakers see when the people they take care of are
nearing death or die in their presence. Some make it very clear, right
before they die, that they're not going where they were hoping to go.
There was one in particular that I found interesting. A nearly immobile
old man suddenly has a powerful burst of energy and desperately clings
to his bed screaming "don't let him get me" before finally saying "he
got me" as he dies. The way I see it, that would make a believer out of
anyone.
I've unfortunately been in the same position when someone has passed. And prior to their passing they would talk to people who passed before them. People they knew. I remain skeptical of the entire thing. Not closed minded, just skeptical.
Thanks for responding to my query.
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of
restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software which respect freedom.
On 11/6/25 8:31 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of
restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software
which respect freedom.
That's a great reminder, I should give to Mint again. (I'm using
Debian, but with Mint's DE.)
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] Thu, 06 >> Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the
repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not impossible. >> Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. It's completely
anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're
not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that
very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be
to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the
panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:09:48 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <NxcPQ.493374$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 8:31 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of >>>> restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software
which respect freedom.
That's a great reminder, I should give to Mint again. (I'm using
Debian, but with Mint's DE.)
Mint was my favorite when I was more into Linux. Have played a bit recently and it seems to still be doing well.
On 11/6/25 9:29 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:09:48 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NxcPQ.493374$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 8:31 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of >>>>> restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software >>>> which respect freedom.
That's a great reminder, I should give to Mint again. (I'm using
Debian, but with Mint's DE.)
Mint was my favorite when I was more into Linux. Have played a bit recently >> and it seems to still be doing well.
Mint is good for newcomers and those who favor its patterns. Debian
gives me the same general stability and Cinnamon DE, without the
drawbacks of Mint.
But by contributing monetarily to Mint, I support--
the Cinnamon project, and the expansion of the user base of Linux as a
whole.
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:45:35 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <k3dPQ.472651$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 9:29 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:09:48 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NxcPQ.493374$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 8:31 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of >>>>>> restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software >>>>> which respect freedom.
That's a great reminder, I should give to Mint again. (I'm using
Debian, but with Mint's DE.)
Mint was my favorite when I was more into Linux. Have played a bit recently >>> and it seems to still be doing well.
Mint is good for newcomers and those who favor its patterns. Debian
gives me the same general stability and Cinnamon DE, without the
drawbacks of Mint.
What drawbacks (Not denying them, truly curious of your thoughts).
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:43:59 -0500, Paul wrote:
On Wed, 11/5/2025 3:46 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
These “AI workstations” for AI development, not AI consumption.
Seems this development is happening primarily, possibly even
exclusively, on Linux.
The AI workstations are for self-hosted inference ("chat about your
love life with an LLM AI"), and they're not very good.
I’m sure that’s an entirely objective opinion, not coloured at all by
the fact that Apple is a bit behind the curve on this ...
From <https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/artificial-intelligence/asrocks-revamped-ai-quickset-wsl-virtualization-tool-makes-it-easy-to-run-linux-ai-apps-on-windows>:
Making matters worse, most "cutting-edge" AI applications are
typically optimized for Linux, making it even harder for Windows
users to get these apps up and running in Windows (if at all).
You’d think most AI apps would concentrate on the Windows market, or
at least support Windows and Linux equally. But perhaps not:
The original version of AI Quickset was only capable of
configuring AI applications that were designed with either Windows
or Linux in mind. AI Quickset WSL expands upon this and again
allows users the freedom to run Linux-based AI apps on Windows,
which is a huge deal if you dabble in AI models that are mostly
[relegated] to the Linux space.
On 11/6/25 11:16 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:45:35 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<k3dPQ.472651$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 9:29 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 6, 2025 at 7:09:48 PM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote
<NxcPQ.493374$[email protected]>:
On 11/6/25 8:31 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-11-06 4:24 p.m., Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it. “Free software” means “free of >>>>>>> restrictions”. And some people find that worth paying for.
+1. So very well said. I will gladly support the developers of software >>>>>> which respect freedom.
That's a great reminder, I should give to Mint again. (I'm using
Debian, but with Mint's DE.)
Mint was my favorite when I was more into Linux. Have played a bit recently
and it seems to still be doing well.
Mint is good for newcomers and those who favor its patterns. Debian
gives me the same general stability and Cinnamon DE, without the
drawbacks of Mint.
What drawbacks (Not denying them, truly curious of your thoughts).
The great thing about Mint is how it's a total whore of a distro, you
can throw anything at it and it will stick - problem being, this breaks in-place upgrades. For one who can't be satisfied with a
still-supported slightly older version, this becomes a problem (OCD, I
know).
Debian is a little more solid in this regard. And it's just the
best distro for general-purpose usage, in my opinion, there are ones
that hearken back to the old days that are probably just as perfected,
but Debian gives someone like me, who knows enough to know his way
around, but isn't a guru, a functional and usable distro.
You don't run a (61GB download) AI model on your daily driver.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/6/2025 3:24 PM:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
Thanks. That explains a lot. Good luck and hope you succeed selling linux.
On 2025-11-03 6:27 p.m., chrisv wrote:
CrudeSausage wrote:
The biggest reason I would buy pre-built is because the people working
on that machine are absolute artists when it comes to cable management.
Compared to them, anything I do is a comedy.
I've built a lot of PC's. I've never cared about cable management,
other than to try to tuck-away excessive cable from the power supply,
for example. If main thing is that nothing interfere with the fans.
I'm the same way, but these technicians are artists when it comes toThere's a balance to be struck between cable length and efficient cable routing...so as to not interfere with airflow, to minimize costs,
cable management. They do such a stellar job that I actually feel dumb
for building this stuff on my own.
Besides, the appeal of having a gigantic tower making tons of noise when
you turn it on and drawing loads of electricity isn't what it used to be.
-hh
Its a bit humorous to recall how a ~decade ago, PC enthusiasts would criticize Apple's choice to use laptop components in the iMac, as its
where its silent operation basically originated from.
On 2025-11-07 01:42, Hank Rogers wrote:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/6/2025 3:24 PM:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
Thanks. That explains a lot. Good luck and hope you succeed selling
linux.
It is not about selling Linux, although you can.
On Fri, 11/7/2025 8:08 AM, -hh wrote:
it brings us back to why should users should accept low efficiency CPUs, given the diminishing returns payoff of higher performance?
-hh
How do you know they're low efficiency ?
They have improved since the last time you looked.
One of the problems is, things outside the CPU are
drawing more power than the CPU at idle. The "SOC",
the PCH, the iGPU, the GPU are possible loads.
It's just not the same Wild West it used to be. Intel has learned a
lesson from the damage it caused to 13th and 14th generation CPUs
and the instruction-level voltage boosting.
AMD gets some performance improvement, from increasing theAnother approach, sure, and every little bit helps, but the elephant in
amount of L3. Instead of goosing the voltage and raising the
clock even higher than it already is.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 08:08:30 -0500, -hh wrote:
Its a bit humorous to recall how a ~decade ago, PC enthusiasts would
criticize Apple's choice to use laptop components in the iMac, as its
where its silent operation basically originated from.
The criticism of Apple, at least these days, is about the lack of expandability from their monolithic design, which seems to be the only way they were able to achieve high performance and efficiency.
Meanwhile, power-efficiency has become something that’s important across the entire range of computing hardware. Yet others have been able to
achieve it without sacrificing versatility and expandability.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 08:08:30 -0500, -hh wrote:
Its a bit humorous to recall how a ~decade ago, PC enthusiasts would
criticize Apple's choice to use laptop components in the iMac, as its
where its silent operation basically originated from.
The criticism of Apple, at least these days, is about the lack of expandability from their monolithic design, which seems to be the only way they were able to achieve high performance and efficiency.
Meanwhile, power-efficiency has become something that’s important across the entire range of computing hardware. Yet others have been able to
achieve it without sacrificing versatility and expandability.
On Nov 7, 2025 at 12:49:54 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10elih2$23abn$[email protected]>:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 08:08:30 -0500, -hh wrote:
Its a bit humorous to recall how a ~decade ago, PC enthusiasts would
criticize Apple's choice to use laptop components in the iMac, as its
where its silent operation basically originated from.
The criticism of Apple, at least these days, is about the lack of
expandability from their monolithic design, which seems to be the only way >> they were able to achieve high performance and efficiency.
Meanwhile, power-efficiency has become something that’s important across >> the entire range of computing hardware. Yet others have been able to
achieve it without sacrificing versatility and expandability.
Who has the same level of power efficiency?
On 11/7/25 14:49, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
Meanwhile, power-efficiency has become something that’s important
across the entire range of computing hardware. Yet others have been
able to achieve it without sacrificing versatility and expandability.
As much as I'd like to agree with this from a home enthusiast
perspective to facilitate incremental improvements, I've seen how on the Enterprise side, they don't care ...
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected]
Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the
repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example.
It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're
not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that
very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be
to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
I've unfortunately been in the same position when someone has passed.
And prior to their passing they would talk to people who passed before
them. People they knew. I remain skeptical of the entire thing. Not
closed minded, just skeptical.
Thanks for responding to my query.
Apparently, you start to see people who have died around six months
before you yourself pass. The experience is said to be very real. I
imagine that it is a sign that you're going to a good place upon death.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 13:21:00 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-11-07 01:42, Hank Rogers wrote:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/6/2025 3:24 PM:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
Thanks. That explains a lot. Good luck and hope you succeed selling
linux.
It is not about selling Linux, although you can.
There is also “selling” in the metaphorical sense, as in convincing customers that Linux is the safest platform to bet their business on, not just in terms of its capabilities to deal with the problems they are
handling today, as its potential to adapt to ones they are likely to encounter in the future, both foreseeable and unforeseeable.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri,
07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected]
Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example.
It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're
not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that
very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be
to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the
panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them,
but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should
go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people
love the company and their devices.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
I've unfortunately been in the same position when someone has passed.
And prior to their passing they would talk to people who passed before
them. People they knew. I remain skeptical of the entire thing. Not
closed minded, just skeptical.
Thanks for responding to my query.
Apparently, you start to see people who have died around six months
before you yourself pass. The experience is said to be very real. I
imagine that it is a sign that you're going to a good place upon death.
Sadly, the person started doing that less than a week before we lost them.
A individuals camera systems were alerting to movement during this time.
The ones in the same room I understood; the person who was in pallative
care was moving a little bit. But, the ones outside of that room I
couldn't reasonably explain for myself; there was nobody in those rooms
that we could see with the wavelengths our eyes can process. And nothing
was moving in them. But the cameras were all sounding off and flooding our cells with video. I took copies of the videos and put them thru kdenlive.
You could see pixelation in some spots, sort of as if an invisible object? was moving around. I have no reasonable scientific explanation for this. Whatever it was wasn't actually visible to the cameras in the manner one would expect. Just pixelation showing movement - but nothing there. And if you didn't go frame by frame and slow motion it, you wouldn't even notice what I'll call a blob of pixels changing position. On a fixed camera.
Several have tracking abilities and actually tried to follow the pixel
blob. So..again, whatever it is/was? although not visible, the cameras saw enough to be able to lock and track it. As I'm sure you know, a camera doesn't see thing as we do; and didn't catch anything you'd call a human
or anything on video, but they did catch movement that I can't explain.
All I can say is that you could see pixel changes. Showing that something invisible? was moving. The cameras in that persons room also had these details.
When I was a teenager, I was with some cousins of mine. We were daring
each other to see who would go the furthest in a cemetery I lived across
the street from at night time. I had a base station CB at the house and a portable 40channel that was hand held. Each one of us took turns with a flashlight and the portable to see who would go the furthest in.
They'd chicken out about a quarter of the way in, but, the equipment
didn't croak on them. they just got scared and ran out. I, being the
snarky shit I am who doesn't really believe in such things was happy to
prove them all wrong- that there was nothing there. So, I took a fresh set
of batteries for both the light and the handheld and went to walking in.
As soon as I got to the graves of the kids who died in the mid to late
1800s, the flashlight died. I don't mean it got dim and went out as you'd expect from batteries that got weak and petered out. I mean it shut off as
if you hit the power switch. Only I didn't. And I could not get the damn thing to come back on. The moon was giving off enough light though so I didn't really need the flashlight, so I continued in further. That is,
until the damn radio did the same thing. It wouldn't even power up the display to show me battery status when I hit the battery test button. At
that point, I fully admit, I left sneaker marks and damn near tripped over
a grave marker high tailing it out of there.
As soon as I cleared the cemetery, both the flashlight and the radio came back online, as if nothing was wrong with either of them. When I got back
to the house, I did put a load test on their batteries. They had lost over 50% charge in the fifteen minutes or so I was using them. I cannot explain that anymore so than I can explain how both devices powered off as if I turned them off and came back online once I was back across the road. It still doesn't make sense to me to this day and I've learned a shitload
more about electronics and batteries since then. heh...
I fully admit, I don't know everything and won't ever know everything. I'm sure there's a logical reason for this unexpected equipment failure - but
I don't know it. The batteries weren't from the same manufacturer, weren't even charged by the same chargers. Both sets were at full charge and in
great condition. They shouldn't have lost 50% in fifteen or so minutes.
And neither device should have cut out on me in that manner. I found no issues with either device. I spent the whole damn night tearing that radio down; inspecting it's board thoroughly for any possible issues. I took the flashlight completely apart too - even tried to mess with the switch to
show me it had a problem. I couldn't find anything wrong with either of
them. No failures of any kind. No reason for them to power completely off
and then power back up as if nothing was wrong.
To this day my cousins would say a spirit drained them and shut them down
to prove a point. I dunno about a spirit? doing that, but, something
caused them both to malfunction in a spectacular manner. A malfunction I couldn't replicate that never happened again for as long as I owned those devices.
I do hope there's a place when you pass and that person went to a good
one. I really miss them. I'd love to see them again one day and know that
I would. But, my scientific mindset doesn't allow me to reasonably expect
to be able to do either. Of course, that same brain I have does have those video files and the experience I wrote about and can't give me an answer
for any of it. Grr. Frustrating. :)
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a particular distro.
There is NO LINUX operating system.
There are hundreds of linux "distros", much like feuding christian
churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer
operating system the way it is now.
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri,
07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected]
Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example.
It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're
not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that
very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be
to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the
panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them,
but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should
go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people
love the company and their devices.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built
on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that are easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a
particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying a car is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of
which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a car”, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.”
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built
on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that are easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a
particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying a car is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of
which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a car”, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.”
Now try the conclusion you were trying to claim: “I don’t see any way for cars to ever become a mainstream form of transport.”
See how nonsensical that is?
Open Source is all about choice.
There is NO LINUX operating system.
Yes there is <https://github.com/torvalds/linux>.
There are hundreds of linux "distros", much like feuding christian
churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
Lots of people use or support multiple distros. “Distro-hopping” is a common thing. Imagine if your religions allowed adherents to freely move between different faiths ...
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer
operating system the way it is now.
I’ve got news for you: most of your Windows/Apple machines are essentially being used for passive consumption of content. And most of that content
comes from ... Linux machines!
Lawrence D�Oliveiro wrote on 11/7/2025 1:53 PM:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 13:21:00 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-11-07 01:42, Hank Rogers wrote:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/6/2025 3:24 PM:
On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 12:15:58 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Linux greedy? It is free and gratis!
Some of us make a living from it.
Thanks. That explains a lot. Good luck and hope you succeed selling >>>> linux.
It is not about selling Linux, although you can.
There is also “selling” in the metaphorical sense, as in convincing
customers that Linux is the safest platform to bet their business on, not
just in terms of its capabilities to deal with the problems they are
handling today, as its potential to adapt to ones they are likely to
encounter in the future, both foreseeable and unforeseeable.
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many distros, each of which have a cult following.� A businessman can't simply choose "linux".� He must also subscribe to a particular distro.
There is NO LINUX operating system.� There are hundreds of linux "distros",� much like feuding christian churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer operating system the way it is now.� You must pick a particular cult and worship it.� That's nutz!
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote <[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri, >> 07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected]
Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example.
It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that
very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be
to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the
panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of
them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them,
but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should >> go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's
actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get
around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people
love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he >> founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle.
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you get confused between distros and DEs:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE
are not one in the same thing.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/7/2025 6:08 PM:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built
on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that
are
easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a >>> particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying >> a car
is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of
which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a
carâ€, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.â€
Now try the conclusion you were trying to claim: “I don’t see any
way for
cars to ever become a mainstream form of transport.â€
See how nonsensical that is?
Open Source is all about choice.
There is NO LINUX operating system.
Yes there is <https://github.com/torvalds/linux>.
There are hundreds of linux "distros", much like feuding christian
churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
Lots of people use or support multiple distros. “Distro-hopping†is a
common thing. Imagine if your religions allowed adherents to freely move
between different faiths ...
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer
operating system the way it is now.
I’ve got news for you: most of your Windows/Apple machines are
essentially
being used for passive consumption of content. And most of that content
comes from ... Linux machines!
We can all agree that linus torvalds is GOD.
Amen brother.
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/7/2025 6:29 PM:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri, >>> 07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] >>>>> Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. >>>>> It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that >>>> very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be >>>> to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the >>>> panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of >>> them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them,
but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should >>> go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's >>> actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get >>> around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people
love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he >>> founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle.
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the
different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you
get confused between distros and DEs:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE
are not one in the same thing.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a
system... at least for the most part. You do not have one door working
one way and another working in a different arbitrary way.
Desktop Linux does have that as a bit of a challenge.
A Lenovo web page has this to say:
"What’s the difference between Linux Kernel and Linux OS?
The Kernel is the core component of a computer's operating
system, responsible for directly managing hardware resources such
as the CPU, memory, and input/output devices. It acts as a bridge
between the hardware and software, ensuring that applications can
access hardware resources efficiently and safely.
On the other hand, the operating system (OS) encompasses the
Kernel along with additional features like applications, user
interfaces, and various tools.
We can all agree that linus torvalds is GOD.
On 08 Nov 2025 00:33:45 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a
system... at least for the most part. You do not have one door working
one way and another working in a different arbitrary way.
Funny you should mention that. The first Toyota that I owned, I got hold
of the user manual, which covered both the hatchback version that I had,
and a different model. And reading through the instructions, it happened
to mention that, to lock/unlock the door, you turned the key in the lock
one way on my model, and the opposite way in the other model.
Desktop Linux does have that as a bit of a challenge.
Choice is bad! Somebody should force the fans of Open Source to choose not to have a choice ...
On 2025-11-08, Hank Rogers <[email protected]d> wrote:
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/7/2025 6:29 PM:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri, >>>> 07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] >>>>>> Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. >>>>>> It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>>>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that >>>>> very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be >>>>> to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the >>>>> panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that >>>>> the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of >>>> them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them, >>>> but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should >>>> go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's >>>> actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get >>>> around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people >>>> love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he >>>> founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle. >>>
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the
different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you
get confused between distros and DEs:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE >>> are not one in the same thing.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
Redhat is indeed a Linux distribution like Ubuntu, LinuxMint and so forth.
A distribution is a complete packaging of Linux and it's applications and in relation to Windows or OSX it's kind of like an operating system in itself. That is technically incorrect but think of a distribution as the entire Linux software "experience" for lack of a better term.
So you install a distribution and move on to customization from that
point on.
A DE is a desktop environment.
Basically it is a GUI which provides the interface, widgets, a window manager and so forth for the user to interact with.
Think of it like changing the look and feel of a Windows desktop.
The DE differences are that some are eye candy loaded and others are lean
and mean which means they are good for lower powered computers.
There is literally something for everyone WRT Linux.
On 2025-11-07 19:44, Hank Rogers wrote:
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote on 11/7/2025 6:08 PM:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built >>> on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that
are
easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a >>>> particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying >>> a car
is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of
which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a
carâ€, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.â€
Now try the conclusion you were trying to claim: “I don’t see any
way for
cars to ever become a mainstream form of transport.â€
See how nonsensical that is?
Open Source is all about choice.
There is NO LINUX operating system.
Yes there is <https://github.com/torvalds/linux>.
There are hundreds of linux "distros", much like feuding christian
churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
Lots of people use or support multiple distros. “Distro-hopping†is a
common thing. Imagine if your religions allowed adherents to freely move >>> between different faiths ...
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer
operating system the way it is now.
I’ve got news for you: most of your Windows/Apple machines are
essentially
being used for passive consumption of content. And most of that content
comes from ... Linux machines!
We can all agree that linus torvalds is GOD.
Amen brother.
Please refrain from mocking God, for your own sake.
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/7/2025 6:29 PM:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri, >>> 07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] >>>>> Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. >>>>> It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that >>>> very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be >>>> to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the >>>> panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that
the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of >>> them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them,
but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should >>> go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's >>> actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get >>> around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people
love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he >>> founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle.
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the
different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you
get confused between distros and DEs:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE
are not one in the same thing.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
On 08 Nov 2025 00:33:45 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a
system... at least for the most part. You do not have one door working
one way and another working in a different arbitrary way.
Funny you should mention that. The first Toyota that I owned, I got hold
of the user manual, which covered both the hatchback version that I had,
and a different model. And reading through the instructions, it happened
to mention that, to lock/unlock the door, you turned the key in the lock
one way on my model, and the opposite way in the other model.
Desktop Linux does have that as a bit of a challenge.
Choice is bad! Somebody should force the fans of Open Source to choose not
to have a choice ...
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a
system... at least for the most part. You do not have one door working
one way and another working in a different arbitrary way. Desktop Linux
does have that as a bit of a challenge.
It goes some choices. Windows and macOS give other choices. I am happy
for all of them.
On Nov 7, 2025 at 6:23:56 PM MST, "Hank Rogers" wrote <10em63i$28vu6$[email protected]>:
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/7/2025 6:29 PM:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri, >>>> 07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] >>>>>> Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. >>>>>> It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>>>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that >>>>> very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be >>>>> to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the >>>>> panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that >>>>> the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of >>>> them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them, >>>> but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should >>>> go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's >>>> actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get >>>> around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people >>>> love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he >>>> founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their
wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle. >>>
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the
different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you
get confused between distros and DEs:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE
are not one in the same thing.
-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
...
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
Distro. By default it uses the GNOME DE.
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
No. A DE (Desktop Environment) isn't the full distro (or OS) -- it's the graphical layer that sits "on top". It provides things like windows, icons, menus, and system settings. In other words, it's essentially the GUI (Graphical User Interface) layer that makes Linux systems user-friendly and not require you to just use the CLI (Command Line Interface).
Underneath the DE is the Linux system itself -— the kernel (Linux), drivers,
and command line tools that actually make everything work.
Some common DEs are GNOME, KDE Plasma, XFCE, Cinnamon, and MATE.
If I shut down the machine, come to work the next day, and booted, there would be a login screen as usual. I could click in the Username field,
and as I was about to type "bullwinkle" (my userid), I would look to the lower right and an icon there offers a small menu with the available DEs listed. I might see Cinnamon and Gnome. If I wanted to run Gnome for
this session I could.
While Windows has File Explorer as the file explorer, if I have
multiple DEs loaded, there would be a copy of Nemo, Thunar, Caja,
PCManFM, Nautilus and so on. Each might be a file explorer that is
slightly different, but you could be excused for visually confusing
one with another. Each one of these belongs with a DE, which you can
load at startup.
On Fri, 11/7/2025 11:09 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 6:23:56 PM MST, "Hank Rogers" wrote
<10em63i$28vu6$[email protected]>:
Brock McNuggets wrote on 11/7/2025 6:29 PM:
On Nov 7, 2025 at 2:23:24 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<[email protected]>:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:m2cPQ.1135083$[email protected] Fri,
07 Nov 2025 01:36:18 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
On 2025-11-06 6:01 p.m., Gremlin wrote:
CrudeSausage <[email protected]> news:kdUOQ.647349$[email protected] >>>>>>> Thu, 06 Nov 2025 03:02:39 GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
So, what is your general assessment of Apple products, at least on the >>>>>>>> repair side of things?
They go out of their way to make some repairs difficult if not
impossible. Serializing specific chips on the mainboard for example. >>>>>>> It's completely anti consumer. imo.
Completely agreed. I am not sure how true this is, but apparently you're >>>>>> not going to be able to replace a MacBook's panel if it cracks for that >>>>>> very reason. I can't imagine what kind of a zealot one would need to be >>>>>> to defend a corporation's prohibition of you being able to replace the >>>>>> panel. I needed to replace it on my old Sony Vaio, and I am glad that >>>>>> the company didn't stand in my way of doing so.
It depends on the panel and specific model. They didn't serialize all of >>>>> them, but, some are yea. I think they initially didn't serialize them, >>>>> but, enough of us were able to fix machines that Apple decided they should
go ahead and do that too. The last one I checked, the little board that's >>>>> actually on the panel is responsible. So far, I haven't been able to get >>>>> around it. Apple and their proprietary snarky shit. Yet, so many people >>>>> love the company and their devices.
If something served me better for less money I would love it.
Stallman is a saint, eh? LOL!
If they knew what assholes the founders were, just like Bill Gates when he
founded Microsoft - maybe? they wouldn't be so willing to open their >>>>> wallets. I sometimes think Apple people could be sold a polished turd. >>>>
Use what you like. Let others do so, too. No need to attack or belittle. >>>>
In your case you do it because you do not understand the value of the
different choices. You are not very good with using tech. Even with Linux you
get confused between distros and DEs:
---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>
* Gremlin was so ignorant of Linux he thought I was saying a DE
and distro are the same.
<http://techrights.org/TechBytes/techbytes0056.mp3>
• At 9:54 I make it clear when I am speaking of a specific
issue with KDE I am speaking of how it is on one specific
distro by default. It is absolutely clear I know the DE and
the distro are not the same.
• At 12:15 I again speak of how I am referencing KDE on one
distro as it comes by default, and how I realize the
defaults can be changed, and how it is different on other
distros.
• At 30:50 or so I speak about how you are using not just a DE
(KDE, specifically) but a distro, and the distro is a lot
more than just the DE.
Yet you concluded:
<[email protected].C>:
-----
Snit is evidently unaware of the fact the distro itself and the DE >>>> are not one in the same thing.
-----
---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>
...
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
Distro. By default it uses the GNOME DE.
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
No. A DE (Desktop Environment) isn't the full distro (or OS) -- it's the
graphical layer that sits "on top". It provides things like windows, icons, >> menus, and system settings. In other words, it's essentially the GUI
(Graphical User Interface) layer that makes Linux systems user-friendly and >> not require you to just use the CLI (Command Line Interface).
Underneath the DE is the Linux system itself -— the kernel (Linux), drivers,
and command line tools that actually make everything work.
Some common DEs are GNOME, KDE Plasma, XFCE, Cinnamon, and MATE.
When you download Linux Mint Cinnamon, that is an OS which includes
one (the named) desktop environment. But the other desktop environments
are still listed in the package manager. For convenience, there could be
a set of 100 packages, with all the "toys" that belong to a Desktop Environment
in a "MetaPackage". I could be sitting in Cinnamon, and install
"MetaPackage Gnome" and a second Desktop Environment would download
and install.
If I shut down the machine, come to work the next day, and booted, there would
be
a login screen as usual. I could click in the Username field, and as I was about to type "bullwinkle" (my userid), I would look to the lower right and an icon there offers a small menu with the available DEs listed. I might
see Cinnamon and Gnome. If I wanted to run Gnome for this session I could.
I select Gnome, then I enter my userid:password and the session begins.
While Windows has File Explorer as the file explorer, if I have multiple
DEs loaded, there would be a copy of Nemo, Thunar, Caja, PCManFM, Nautilus and so on. Each might be a file explorer that is slightly different, but
you could be excused for visually confusing one with another. Each one
of these belongs with a DE, which you can load at startup.
Some of the DEs have distinctive features. Let us say Gnome as a desktop environment, does not allow the user to place "icons" on the desktop.
The user may form an opinion about this, think back to that menu at login. And decide to go to the Package Manager and remove the metapackage or
purge it. You have the flexibility to whittle down the choices to the
one that works for you.
The application packages come with a .desktop file. It is a simple text thing, with a list of lines that tell the Desktop Environment about the program. And this allows the program to appear in a menu. Applications
are launched via menu. The menu could descend from the upper left corner, rise from the lower left corner, and so on. The menus may also open sideways, slide around, be searchable and so on. So any time you install a package,
you are "hopeful it comes with a .desktop file" like say firefox.desktop .
As that helps automate the install process and the .desktop says which "section" of the menu the item belongs in. If I installed GIMP photoeditor, maybe it is always sorted into the "Graphics" sub-menu.
For adjusting things, there are tools like "dconf" for editing all sorts
of properties of the desktop. This isn't Regedit, but it follows on some
very similar concepts. Usually it will take a Google, to form a plan about what you want to edit and why. Just as Windows programs can be
pretty opaque about how to achieve a decoration result.
Once you've settled on a Desktop Environment that is decently productive, your experimenting phase is over and you can stick with one solution, and then maybe you can remember your file sharing works as
nemo smb://wallace/shared
which is Windows file sharing with my WALLACE daily Windows machine. Nemo will pop up a login dialog so I can authenticate and get a file off the shared drive S: . On Windows it might be
explorer \\Wallace\shared
Both treat these things as a kind of URI. The file exploring application
then shows the contents of the remote server.
You're allowed to run multiple DEs, as a part of evaluating Desktop Environments. There is no particular reason to be fluttering back and
forth between them. One is quite frequently enough.
*******
You can find lists of these things. But they're not all of equal
size or maturity.
https://opensource.com/article/20/5/linux-desktops
The X11 server, it has been drawing polygons on the screen for decades.
And when it came out, the "twm" Window Manager was a thing. The reason it
is a Windows Manager, is it just handles moving windows around the screen
and the odd little right-click kind of menu. When you're poor and cannot afford the space for a Full Desktop Environment, it at least allows
you to open multiple instances of XTerm terminal window. If TWM is killed, whatever position the windows had on the screen, the windows stay at those coordinates and they cannot move. They can be dismissed if you like. If
you start more of them, they tend to lay on top of one another, obscuring
the ones underneath. But TWM is kind of a tradition, and if you just load
X11 and do a "ghetto" session, that can be enough for the job. You can
start Firefox from an XTerm window, and it comes up as you would expect
and you can move Firefox around the screen.
Some of the things in that list above, are a lot bigger than other things
in the list. But if you start a vanilla X11 (with no decorations to speak of),
then starting a copy of TWM would be a traditional way to decorate and
make it useful. For example, if you install the server version of a Linux,
it doesn't have the graphics desktop, and the users normally do a lot of command line. You would be installing X11 from the command line.
Installing TWM as a package. And so on. While you could install Gnome metapackage and the cascade of packages to install would include
installing X11 at the bottom layer, that is cheating. And it is good
to practice your skillz at bringing up X11 in the old-school way.
LightDM # LightDM is optional, and is the session manager
| \ # with the login box. It allows you to select Gnome or TWM.
| \
Gnome TWM # This layer adds a large or small amount of GUI stuff
\ /
X11 # This draws the screen, draws lines with BitBLT and so on.
| # If nothing else starts properly, the screen can remain kinda gray.
|
frame buffer # This is the hardware, somewhere at the bottom of the
diagram
There are terminal sessions "hiding behind the screen". If you press alt-F1 or
alt-F2, you will eventually find a text terminal with a login prompt. Let us say you started X11, the screen is gray, and your forgot to make a TWM. You're kinda screwed, right ? well, if you alt-F2 and login there as bullwinkle,
you can issue commands to kill the X11 session or do something else (you can start a TWM while in alt-f2). Thus, alt-Fn affords something you can do, which
is
"short of turning off the power".
That's a quick tour, from memory.
Paul
On 08 Nov 2025 04:17:16 GMT, Brock McNuggets wrote:
It goes some choices. Windows and macOS give other choices. I am happy
for all of them.
You weren’t so happy before, when you tried to claim that Linux choice was somehow “a bit of a challenge”, were you?
Brock McNuggets <[email protected]> news:690e8fe9$6$25$[email protected] Sat, 08 Nov 2025 00:33:45
GMT in comp.os.linux.advocacy, wrote:
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a
system... at least for the most part. You do not have one door working
one way and another working in a different arbitrary way. Desktop Linux
does have that as a bit of a challenge.
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyota+recall
LOLZ
Does this mean Linux is unusable? NO! Does it mean I am against it? NO!
Does it mean it does not have other advantages? NO!
I particularly like the fact that a photograph taken on my Apple iPhone
is almost instantly available for viewing on my Apple iMac and my Apple
iPad Pro.
All the battery life you need, is 16 hours for a regular day.Sad that most (all?) laptops seem to have moved to non-(easily)removable batteries, so one can't carry a spare (not just for _longer_ life, but
16 hours should be enough for anyone <snicker>.
You can wear a shirt with solar panels on it, if you wantI know you said that in jest (I assume), but given the reduction in
longer battery life.
Paul
Gremlin wrote on 11/7/2025 3:23 PM:[]
[]When I was a teenager, I was with some cousins of mine. We were daring>> each other to see who would go the furthest in a cemetery I lived across
Pity you were a teenager without access to ... sounds like would haveexpect from batteries that got weak and petered out. I mean it shut off as >> if you hit the power switch. Only I didn't. And I could not get the damn
thing to come back on. The moon was giving off enough light though so I
didn't really need the flashlight, so I continued in further. That is,>> until the damn radio did the same thing. It wouldn't even power up the>> display to show me battery status when I hit the battery test button. At
that point, I fully admit, I left sneaker marks and damn near tripped over >> a grave marker high tailing it out of there.
As soon as I cleared the cemetery, both the flashlight and the radio came
back online, as if nothing was wrong with either of them. When I got back
to the house, I did put a load test on their batteries. They had lost over >> 50% charge in the fifteen minutes or so I was using them. I cannot explain >> that anymore so than I can explain how both devices powered off as if I
turned them off and came back online once I was back across the road. It
still doesn't make sense to me to this day and I've learned a shitload>> more about electronics and batteries since then. heh...
The leap from "I can't explain it" to "something supernatural happened"To this day my cousins would say a spirit drained them and shut them down
to prove a point. I dunno about a spirit? doing that, but, something
caused them both to malfunction in a spectacular manner. A malfunction I
couldn't replicate that never happened again for as long as I owned those
devices.
Agreed!
I do hope there's a place when you pass and that person went to a good>> one. I really miss them. I'd love to see them again one day and know that
I would. But, my scientific mindset doesn't allow me to reasonably expect
to be able to do either. Of course, that same brain I have does have those Same here.
video files and the experience I wrote about and can't give me an answer
for any of it. Grr. Frustrating. :)
Keep up your hope. Perhaps jesus will visit you in a dream a few"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers
minutes before you die, and he will reveal all mysteries.
Jesus and god do like to be mysterious. They also demand you keep
believing in all the stuff they wrote in those ancient jewish scrolls.
Otherwise, they will send you to hell.... but more often, it's the religion's advocates on earth who punish
So, just do it!
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:He can choose "a car", or Linux, rather than using the bus or trains.
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built
on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that are easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a
particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying a car is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a car”, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.”
As an outsider (to both Linux and religion, actually!), I think that's aThere are hundreds of linux "distros", much like feuding christian
churches with all the myriad of branches, cults etc.
Lots of people use or support multiple distros. “Distro-hopping” is a common thing. Imagine if your religions allowed adherents to freely move between different faiths ...Yes, what I said above. Though some of the more enlightened proponents
Yes, I was going to say something to that effect. But equally, I'm withI don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer
operating system the way it is now.
I’ve got news for you: most of your Windows/Apple machines are essentially being used for passive consumption of content. And most of that content comes from ... Linux machines!
All OSs / systems have challenges. One that desktop Linux distros have is getting as consistent of a UI as you see on Windows and macOS (not that either
of those is perfect).
Does this mean Linux is unusable? NO! Does it mean I am against it? NO! Does it mean it does not have other advantages? NO!
Each have their pros and cons. For my day to day work I use macOS. I used to use Linux and Windows more. Hmmm, also use ChromeOS sometimes these days -- which of course also runs on Linux (but is not the GNU/Linux we usually mean when we speak of Desktop Linux).
I am happy all these choices exist.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:[...]
I don't see any way for linux to ever become a mainstream computer operating system the way it is now.
I've got news for you: most of your Windows/Apple machines are essentially being used for passive consumption of content. And most of that content comes from ... Linux machines!
On 2025/11/8 7:7:54, Brock McNuggets wrote:
[]
All OSs / systems have challenges. One that desktop Linux distros have is
getting as consistent of a UI as you see on Windows and macOS (not that either
of those is perfect).
Does this mean Linux is unusable? NO! Does it mean I am against it? NO! Does >> it mean it does not have other advantages? NO!
Each have their pros and cons. For my day to day work I use macOS. I used to >> use Linux and Windows more. Hmmm, also use ChromeOS sometimes these days -- >> which of course also runs on Linux (but is not the GNU/Linux we usually mean >> when we speak of Desktop Linux).
I am happy all these choices exist.
you are far too sensible and tolerant to take part in this discussion;
to do so, you have to join one camp, and pour scorn on all the others.
:-)
(Me: I started with 6800, then 6502, some time in bit-slice [2901 and
clones] and the DSP processors [TMS320, 56000, 96000] ...; for home, Tangerine, Oric, Atmos, BBC Master [all 6502], then at the choice of architecture between x86 and ARM went for the former - feeling like a
traitor - but on price; in the X86 world, DOS [Dr. then MS, but
initially they _were_ pretty interchangeable], then Windows, 3.1>95>98SElite>XP>7>10 - all the time being _tempted_ by the Linux _concept_, but never investing the effort - and now, too set in my ways [please don't bother]. Windows, always _trailing rather than leading
edge. But not _anti_ any of the others [Apple, Linux, Android, the
Windows ahead of the one I'm using], and grateful for the odd _idea_
that comes from them.)
On Nov 7, 2025 at 5:08:54 PM MST, "Lawrence D´Oliveiro" wrote <10em1mm$27mgj$[email protected]>:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 17:47:24 -0600, Hank Rogers wrote:
Yes, and the problem is compounded by the fact that there are many
distros, each of which have a cult following.
No such thing. It is easy to move between them, since they are all built
on common foundations anyway. The variations are mostly in things that are >> easy to adapt to, or differences in philosophy that have little or no
impact on interoperability.
A businessman can't simply choose "linux". He must also subscribe to a
particular distro.
Try your objection in a different context: “the problem with buying a car >> is compounded by the fact that there are many makes and models, each of
which has a cult following. A businessman can’t simply choose “a car”, he
must also subscribe to a particular make and model.”
But if you buy a Toyota the whole system is designed to work as a system... at
least for the most part. You do not have one door working one way and another working in a different arbitrary way. Desktop Linux does have that as a bit of
a challenge.
Say, is red hat a "distro" or is it a "DE"?
I used it many many years ago. It was probably before distos and de's
were invented.
And exactly what the hell is a DE? People yammer on and on about
distros, but I haven't seen DEs mentioned much. Are they new?
On Mon, 3 Nov 2025 20:23:24 +0000, "David B." <[email protected]>
wrote:
I particularly like the fact that a photograph taken on my Apple iPhone
is almost instantly available for viewing on my Apple iMac and my Apple
iPad Pro.
Google Photos can do the same, for all operating systems: The app
syncs the photos to the cloud, every browser (within your google
account) can look at them, download them, if needed.
| Sysop: | DaiTengu |
|---|---|
| Location: | Appleton, WI |
| Users: | 1,076 |
| Nodes: | 10 (1 / 9) |
| Uptime: | 73:41:46 |
| Calls: | 13,805 |
| Files: | 186,990 |
| D/L today: |
3,760 files (1,238M bytes) |
| Messages: | 2,443,036 |
