From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

Thoughts on Jack Wallen’s list <https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-first-8-linux-commands-every-new-user-should-learn/>?
My comments:

* Don’t use “ls -a”, use “ls -A” instead. The former shows the useless
“.” and ”..” entries that nobody wants to see, the latter keeps them
hidden.
* rm, cp and mv all take the “-v” option so they tell you what they’ve
done after they’ve done it. This can be reassuring to those feeling
a little nervous about the power of these commands.
* Furthermore, cp and mv also take the “-i” option, which will ask you
to confirm if an item already exists under the new name. Handy to
guard against accidental overwrites.
* The “less” command has lots of useful options. I particularly like
“-X” to stop it clearing the screen when it exits, and “-i” to make
searches case-insensitive by default.

Further, I don’t know why Linux distros don’t just replace the
traditional “more” command with “less” under the “more” name, and be
done with it. Until that happens, I put lines like this in my login
script:

export PAGER='less -iX'
alias more="$PAGER"

The PAGER variable is respected by lots of command-line programs that
might have large amounts of text information to show to you. Setting
it lets you customize how they show that information.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-05, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

Thoughts on Jack Wallen’s list <https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-first-8-linux-commands-every-new-user-should-learn/>?

Again!?

It has one more command but overall seems to be some sort of recycling of

http://web.archive.org/web/20250927231017/https://www.zdnet.com/article/im-a-linux-expert-and-here-are-6-commands-i-cant-live-without/

whose address even redirects now to the article you linked

My comments:

* Don’t use “ls -a”, use “ls -A” instead. The former shows the useless
“.” and ”..” entries that nobody wants to see, the latter keeps them
hidden.

Eh, there are instances where one will want to look at . and
... Permissions, for example. And yes, I'm aware that the first sentence
of this paragraph may be harder to parse than usual.

* rm, cp and mv all take the “-v” option so they tell you what they’ve
done after they’ve done it. This can be reassuring to those feeling
a little nervous about the power of these commands.

That's nonstandard, isn't it?

* Furthermore, cp and mv also take the “-i” option, which will ask you
to confirm if an item already exists under the new name. Handy to
guard against accidental overwrites.

Now this one is in IEEE 1003.1; For non-standard/non-portable options,
I'd add "-n", present at least in GNU cp and mv. Depending on the type
of operation or on the target, this might be more or less convenient
than "-i".

Further, I don’t know why Linux distros don’t just replace the traditional “more” command with “less” under the “more” name, and be
done with it.

One possibility is that more is standardized.

In a quick scan, I see at least -n having a different meaning in less (according to its online manual page on this system) than it has for
more in IEEE 1003.1.

Until that happens, I put lines like this in my login
script:

export PAGER='less -iX'
alias more="$PAGER"

The PAGER variable is respected by lots of command-line programs that
might have large amounts of text information to show to you. Setting
it lets you customize how they show that information.

--
Nuno Silva
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-05 22:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

Thoughts on Jack Wallen’s list <https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-first-8-linux-commands-every-new-user-should-learn/>?
My comments:

* Don’t use “ls -a”, use “ls -A” instead. The former shows the useless
“.” and ”..” entries that nobody wants to see, the latter keeps them
hidden.
* rm, cp and mv all take the “-v” option so they tell you what they’ve
done after they’ve done it. This can be reassuring to those feeling
a little nervous about the power of these commands.
* Furthermore, cp and mv also take the “-i” option, which will ask you
to confirm if an item already exists under the new name. Handy to
guard against accidental overwrites.
* The “less” command has lots of useful options. I particularly like
“-X” to stop it clearing the screen when it exits, and “-i” to make
searches case-insensitive by default.

Further, I don’t know why Linux distros don’t just replace the traditional “more” command with “less” under the “more” name, and be
done with it. Until that happens, I put lines like this in my login
script:

export PAGER='less -iX'
alias more="$PAGER"

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER
less
cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

The PAGER variable is respected by lots of command-line programs that
might have large amounts of text information to show to you. Setting
it lets you customize how they show that information.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-05 22:31, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:

Further, I don’t know why Linux distros don’t just replace the
traditional “more” command with “less” under the “more” name, and be
done with it. Until that happens, I put lines like this in my login
script:

export PAGER='less -iX'
alias more="$PAGER"

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER
less
cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

:
|raven@nix6:~$ echo $PAGER
|
|raven@nix6:~$
:
That's the distro's doing. Ubuntu 24.04
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd. Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I
have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd. Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I
have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are
quite capabable of setting it themselves
--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-07 12:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd.  Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I
have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are
quite capabable of setting it themselves

open(SUSE) has killed in the new release Leap 16.0 its traditional setup
tool , YAST (yet another setup tool), which means that home admins have
to do things like adding a user in the CLI, instead of with the mouse
and filling a form.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 07/11/2025 12:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 12:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp>

That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd.  Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I
have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are
quite capabable of setting it themselves

open(SUSE) has killed in the new release Leap 16.0 its traditional setup tool , YAST (yet another setup tool), which means that home admins have
to do things like adding a user in the CLI, instead of with the mouse
and filling a form.

Arguably most desktops are single user anyway.
--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-07 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/11/2025 12:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 12:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> >>>>>
That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd.  Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I >>>> have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are
quite capabable of setting it themselves

open(SUSE) has killed in the new release Leap 16.0 its traditional
setup tool , YAST (yet another setup tool), which means that home
admins have to do things like adding a user in the CLI, instead of
with the mouse and filling a form.

Arguably most desktops are single user anyway.

That was just an example, YaST does a myriad of setup things. Like, for example, setting up a printer or a scanner, or the sound, or keyboard
layout. There are modules to setup a mail server, DNS server, FTP
server, HTTP server, NFS Server/client, etc etc.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

What a stupid fucking issue.

All the posters who took time to respond to this "click bait"
should be ashamed.

This is just journalistic fluff.

Anyone who enters GNU/Linux should already know ALL the
commands, or at least have the ability to rapidly learn
them. It's not rocket science.

The intellectually decrepit journalists are rejoicing
in the collective stupidity that is shown here.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 11/7/25 09:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/11/2025 12:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 12:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> >>>>>>
That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd.  Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set it. I >>>>> have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are
quite capabable of setting it themselves

open(SUSE) has killed in the new release Leap 16.0 its traditional
setup tool , YAST (yet another setup tool), which means that home
admins have to do things like adding a user in the CLI, instead of
with the mouse and filling a form.

Arguably most desktops are single user anyway.

That was just an example, YaST does a myriad of setup things. Like, for example, setting up a printer or a scanner, or the sound, or keyboard layout. There are modules to setup a mail server, DNS server, FTP
server, HTTP server, NFS Server/client, etc etc.

YAST is very good ... and helpful. Apparently though
it's become something of a 'web app' in the latest
incarnation ... doesn't bode well. Likely the last
old grey maintainer retired ...

Started Linux with Slack, RH and SUSE back in the old
days - CDs bought in retail stores. Saw the potential
immediately and stuck with it. Of the group SUSE, now
OpenSUSE, was the Cadillac distro. YAST made a lot of
things MUCH easier/smarter. Geez ... ever set up a
softraid array using the CL ? Horrible ! Takes all
day. YAST not only lets you configure in minutes but
also offers good advice on the more sneaky params.

My main concern with OpenSUSE is its dependence on
the RHEL libraries ... because RHEL is now basically
owned entirely by IBM, commercial. CentOS is in the
same leaky boat and more and more options seem to
be $$$-only now.

I'll stick to Deb derivs for now. Arch stuff isn't
bad either, but a somewhat different way of thinking.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 11/7/25 15:09, Diego Garcia wrote:

What a stupid fucking issue.

All the posters who took time to respond to this "click bait"
should be ashamed.

This is just journalistic fluff.

Anyone who enters GNU/Linux should already know ALL the
commands, or at least have the ability to rapidly learn
them. It's not rocket science.

So, it all just comes to you by space-alien
telepathic channels ? :-)

Everybody has to LEARN this stuff. Depending on
the person or specific interests they will learn
better or not better, specific things or not.

The intellectually decrepit journalists are rejoicing
in the collective stupidity that is shown here.

Linux CL commands have a ZILLION options ... not
all are covered, at least well, in either the
intrinsic help OR the man pages.

Often the EXACT thing you need IS in there, but
you may spend all day discovering that and the
exact syntax can be even more elusive.

That's the state of things.

Oh, and we DON'T want just 'super-humans' using
Linux ... it's better than Win and we want to woo
people away from total M$ dependence.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 20:59:22 -0500, c186282 wrote:

My main concern with OpenSUSE is its dependence on the RHEL libraries
... because RHEL is now basically owned entirely by IBM, commercial.
CentOS is in the same leaky boat and more and more options seem to be
$$$-only now.

OpenSUSE's base source comes from SUSE Linux Enterprise and is upstream
from SLE. Just because it chose to use the rpm format does not make it a
RHEL derivative.

I think EQT, a Swedish venture capital firm, is the current owner. These
days it's hard to tell which shell the pea is under.

https://thehackernews.com/2018/07/suse-linux-acquired.html
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 20:59:22 -0500, c186282 wrote:

I'll stick to Deb derivs for now. Arch stuff isn't bad either, but a
somewhat different way of thinking.

Yes and no. I'm lazy so I used EndeavourOS. It uses the Arch repositories
and AUR and includes a couple of useful utilities like yay. The default DE
is KDE/Plasma so it looks like any other KDE system. What you miss is all
the fun of creating partitions, formatting them, setting up fstab, adding users, and so forth. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, don't need to spend a couple of hours doing it again.

I am using the Sway WM and that might be called a different way of
thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_(window_manager)

it's not as glitzy as Hyprland, doesn't do animations, rounded corners, transparent windows, blurs, and all the rest of that shit. I'm just as opinionated as Hansson. It's a bit like Vim. A virgin stumbling into a
Sway session is confronted with an empty screen with a little 1 in the
upper left corner. That's all folks. If you don't know what you're doing
you can't even log out of the session.





--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:50:41 -0500, c186282 wrote:

Often the EXACT thing you need IS in there, but you may spend all day
discovering that and the exact syntax can be even more elusive.

'nmcli device wifi list' is obvious.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 11/8/25 02:12, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 20:59:22 -0500, c186282 wrote:

I'll stick to Deb derivs for now. Arch stuff isn't bad either, but a
somewhat different way of thinking.

Yes and no. I'm lazy so I used EndeavourOS. It uses the Arch repositories
and AUR and includes a couple of useful utilities like yay. The default DE
is KDE/Plasma so it looks like any other KDE system. What you miss is all
the fun of creating partitions, formatting them, setting up fstab, adding users, and so forth. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, don't need to spend a couple of hours doing it again.

I am using the Sway WM and that might be called a different way of
thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sway_(window_manager)

The kind of split AUR libs and others are More Complicated
than I like/trust.

Deb puts everything where you expect/need it.

Arch-based IS a very good Linux ... but .......

DO still have two Arch boxes ... but, longer term, they
may go Deb/MX.

REALLY like MX ... medium distro with lots of
good stuff.

Oh, and NO substitute for Synaptic. "Octopus"
comes kind of close ... but only close.

it's not as glitzy as Hyprland, doesn't do animations, rounded corners, transparent windows, blurs, and all the rest of that shit. I'm just as opinionated as Hansson. It's a bit like Vim. A virgin stumbling into a
Sway session is confronted with an empty screen with a little 1 in the
upper left corner. That's all folks. If you don't know what you're doing
you can't even log out of the session.

I don't do fancy videos and such ... far more basic.
As such I don't care about what you quote as 'vital'.

Future ... still looking at some of the nicer BSD
offerings. DragonFly is pretty good, Ghost also.
An important bit is getting the GUI up and working
properly with very minimal intervention. The more
you look at all that shit the WORSE it becomes.

Like it simple and straight-up - no fluff, no trauma.

Remember all the trauma from the first Linux distros.

But I was much younger then.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 11/8/25 02:24, rbowman wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:50:41 -0500, c186282 wrote:

Often the EXACT thing you need IS in there, but you may spend all day
discovering that and the exact syntax can be even more elusive.

'nmcli device wifi list' is obvious.

Yea, THAT one :-)

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

Lawrence D’Oliveiro <[email protected]d> writes:

Thoughts on Jack Wallen’s list <https://www.zdnet.com/article/the-first-8-linux-commands-every-new-user-should-learn/>?
My comments:

* Don’t use “ls -a”, use “ls -A” instead. The former shows the useless
“.” and ”..” entries that nobody wants to see, the latter keeps them
hidden.

I feel like I almost never use -a or -A. I don't need to list the
"hidden" dirs, I know what and where they are. Usually. Hard to think on
a newb's point of view.

* rm, cp and mv all take the “-v” option so they tell you what they’ve
done after they’ve done it. This can be reassuring to those feeling
a little nervous about the power of these commands.

Also works as a progress indicator. Less of a thing for people with only
SSDs and 10Gbps+ networks but some of us plod on with hard disks for
storage.

* Furthermore, cp and mv also take the “-i” option, which will ask you
to confirm if an item already exists under the new name. Handy to
guard against accidental overwrites.

It's funny, I remember a long ago some sysadmin spoke against these,
especially in aliases. He felt people just start typing e.g. \cp always
to bypass the alias and overwriting or deleting their important
files. So, useless in his admin point of view. Of course, he was really
just complaining he had to restore his users' files back from backups. I
can't say I've bumbled with that very often, despite having cp, mv and
rm aliases with -i for over 30 years now but I felt his point was kinda
valid in a "don't do it, then" sort of way.

* The “less” command has lots of useful options. I particularly like
“-X” to stop it clearing the screen when it exits, and “-i” to make
searches case-insensitive by default.

I like -X too for some things, git branch -a for example since usually I
want to see the branches also after git exits. But less doesn't actually
clear the screen without -X, it restores what was there before. I find
it great I can just peek into a man page or a readme file without
messing up what was already on the screen. Sure I could use another
terminal or tab or whatever but why.

Good thing git uses $GIT_PAGER so I can put less -iX -E -R there and
something else in $PAGER.

Further, I don’t know why Linux distros don’t just replace the traditional “more” command with “less” under the “more” name, and be
done with it.

For years I used to have a simple l alias: ls -lF|more and that was
almost all of my use of more. The rest was usually vanilla or embedded
systems with no less installed. More is still a way better pager than
nothing. My recent playing with old PC/IX was made much harder by not
having even a pager, until I chased down some simple variant of pg I
could easily compile there.

Then someone decided I need to add --exit-on-eof starting with some
version of GNU more to retain old behaviour. So eventually it mutated to
a function using less:

l () {
ls --color=always -lF "$@" | less -iX -E -R
}

And yes, I want color too. Seems to help with getting old.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-08 02:59, c186282 wrote:

On 11/7/25 09:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 07/11/2025 12:06, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 12:14, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/11/2025 18:51, rbowman wrote:

On Thu, 6 Nov 2025 13:55:52 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> echo $PAGER less cer@Telcontar:~/tmp/nntp> >>>>>>>
That's the distro doing. openSUSE.

Odd.  Fedora, Ubuntu, Raspberry Pi OS, and EndeavourOS don't set >>>>>> it. I
have set it in my .bashrc but I can't remember why. slrn?

Not may people use the terminal these days and the ones that do are >>>>> quite capabable of setting it themselves

open(SUSE) has killed in the new release Leap 16.0 its traditional
setup tool , YAST (yet another setup tool), which means that home
admins have to do things like adding a user in the CLI, instead of
with the mouse and filling a form.

Arguably most desktops are single user anyway.

That was just an example, YaST does a myriad of setup things. Like,
for example, setting up a printer or a scanner, or the sound, or
keyboard layout. There are modules to setup a mail server, DNS server,
FTP server, HTTP server, NFS Server/client, etc etc.

  YAST is very good ... and helpful. Apparently though
  it's become something of a 'web app' in the latest
  incarnation ... doesn't bode well. Likely the last
  old grey maintainer retired ...

YaST tried to add a web interface some years ago, but it failed. It has
a text mode interface, a QT interface, and for some time a GTK interface.

On 16.0 it is available, but not maintained.

  Started Linux with Slack, RH and SUSE back in the old
  days - CDs bought in retail stores. Saw the potential
  immediately and stuck with it. Of the group SUSE, now
  OpenSUSE, was the Cadillac distro. YAST made a lot of
  things MUCH easier/smarter. Geez ... ever set up a
  softraid array using the CL ? Horrible ! Takes all
  day. YAST not only lets you configure in minutes but
  also offers good advice on the more sneaky params.

  My main concern with OpenSUSE is its dependence on
  the RHEL libraries ... because RHEL is now basically
  owned entirely by IBM, commercial. CentOS is in the
  same leaky boat and more and more options seem to
  be $$$-only now.

No, openSUSE pulls directly from upstream. It is possible that some
problems get the same solution than RH, but this is not a given.

  I'll stick to Deb derivs for now. Arch stuff isn't
  bad either, but a somewhat different way of thinking.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:50:41 -0500, c186282 wrote:

So, it all just comes to you by space-alien
telepathic channels ?

"space-alien telepathic channel" = idiot-proof GUI = GNOME, KDE

Oh, and we DON'T want just 'super-humans' using
Linux ...

A programmer is not "super human," and Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

A fundamental command is "grep" and to effectively wield
it one must understand regular expressions which are examples
of a finite-state automaton.

Yet the article cited in the OP was directed at an audience
that likely cannot even understand the concept of a "file."

it's better than Win and we want to woo
people away from total M$ dependence.

The purpose of GNU/Linux is not to "woo people
away" from M$ but only to provide a computing platform
that is suitable for knowledgeable programmers.

It is players like IBM/RedHat/Ubuntu that are peddling
the OS to total dummies.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-08 12:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-08 02:59, c186282 wrote:

On 11/7/25 09:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-11-07 14:43, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

   My main concern with OpenSUSE is its dependence on
   the RHEL libraries ... because RHEL is now basically
   owned entirely by IBM, commercial. CentOS is in the
   same leaky boat and more and more options seem to
   be $$$-only now.

No, openSUSE pulls directly from upstream. It is possible that some
problems get the same solution than RH, but this is not a given.

Ok, it is a bit more complex than that.

openSUSE Tumbleweed pulls directly from upstream.
SUSE pulls from upstream and Tumbleweed.
openSUSE Leap has the identical core as SUSE, but contains many
community packages that come from Tumbleweed or elsewhere.
SUSE also has community packages

For instance, SUSE is gnome based. Thus Leap has to take KDE from the community, thus more recent versions.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-08 12:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:50:41 -0500, c186282 wrote:

So, it all just comes to you by space-alien
telepathic channels ?

"space-alien telepathic channel" = idiot-proof GUI = GNOME, KDE

Oh, and we DON'T want just 'super-humans' using
Linux ...

A programmer is not "super human," and Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

Bullshit.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/11/2025 11:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

You sure about that?
AFAICR Linus just decided Unix was too expensive and DOS was too crap.

The use to which any of them were put was not a huge driver in his thinking
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 12:15:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/11/2025 11:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

You sure about that?
AFAICR Linus just decided Unix was too expensive and DOS was too crap.

I wasn't around back then but I believe that Torvalds began
Linux as a self-study project during graduate school in Finland.
Basically he wanted to explore memory management, context switching,
etc. on the latest (at that time) processors.

But whatever, it is quite certain that the contributors which
Linux eventually attracted were not motivated by a desire to
create a dummified Windows/Apple clone.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-08 13:26, Diego Garcia wrote:

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 12:15:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/11/2025 11:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

You sure about that?
AFAICR Linus just decided Unix was too expensive and DOS was too crap.

I wasn't around back then but I believe that Torvalds began
Linux as a self-study project during graduate school in Finland.
Basically he wanted to explore memory management, context switching,
etc. on the latest (at that time) processors.

But whatever, it is quite certain that the contributors which
Linux eventually attracted were not motivated by a desire to
create a dummified Windows/Apple clone.

They certainly are not motivated by their software only been used by
other programmers.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/11/2025 12:26, Diego Garcia wrote:

But whatever, it is quite certain that the contributors which
Linux eventually attracted were not motivated by a desire to
create a dummified Windows/Apple clone.

That is not congruent with it 'being designed for programmers'
--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 13:34:23 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

They certainly are not motivated by their software only been used by
other programmers.

What is an "operating system?"

"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware
and software resources, and provides common services for computer programs."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system>

In short, the purpose of an OS is to run computer programs.
That is all. Nothing more.

Where do these "computer programs" come from? Do they
grow on trees? Do they fall from the sky?

No. Computer programs come from computer programmers.

Back in the 1980's and 1990's, when Linux was getting
started, most programs were not produced commercially
but were written entirely within an organization or
institution. These programmers wanted a highly professional
OS -- and they still do.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/11/2025 13:08, Diego Garcia wrote:

Back in the 1980's and 1990's, when Linux was getting
started, most programs were not produced commercially
but were written entirely within an organization or
institution. These programmers wanted a highly professional
OS -- and they still do.

That depends on what you mean by 'most programs'

The most *widely used* programs were solitaire, microsoft word, and
excel or early versions thereof.

Or games.

The first thing I did with Linux was to make it run internet servers.

I have hardly ever programmed for it on an x86 platform. Only for
Raspberry Pis.

Ther is a whole world out there beyond 'programmers' it's called 'users'
--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain



--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 13:27:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Ther is a whole world out there beyond 'programmers' it's called 'users'

That's the problem.

"Users" won't squawk and raise a fuss when IBM/RedHat/Debian decides
to impose pseudo-solutions such as SYSTEMD and WAYLAND and unilaterally
remove choice.

However, knowledgeable programmers *will* squawk and raise a fuss.

Users will accept Linux distro tyranny. Programmers will not.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 2025-11-08, Diego Garcia <[email protected]> wrote:

What is an "operating system?"

"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources, and provides common services for computer programs."

I thought its purpose was to spread advertising.
At least that seems to be the purpose of Win11.
And then there's the whole surveillance angle...
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <[email protected]d> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc



On 11/8/25 03:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

On Fri, 7 Nov 2025 21:50:41 -0500, c186282 wrote:

So, it all just comes to you by space-alien
telepathic channels ?

"space-alien telepathic channel" = idiot-proof GUI = GNOME, KDE

Different levels of understanding by users make sure that no Desktop
Environment is Fool proof. Many people fail to understand how to setup KDE
for their work patterns. I learned about GUI on the Amiga and since
then try to
emulate my Amiga work patterns.
Gnome is far less adaptable and might be called fool-proof but I doubt that
any but the CLIa are truely fool proof oh but look idiot deleted files
with "rm"
that run his expensive or cheap hardware.

Oh, and we DON'T want just 'super-humans' using
Linux ...

A programmer is not "super human," and Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

It was maee by a programmer who since has kept it on course. Lots
of other programmers made up the Various Desktop environments according
to their own ideas so that more people could use Linux.

A fundamental command is "grep" and to effectively wield
it one must understand regular expressions which are examples
of a finite-state automaton.

Yet the article cited in the OP was directed at an audience
that likely cannot even understand the concept of a "file."

it's better than Win and we want to woo
people away from total M$ dependence.

The purpose of GNU/Linux is not to "woo people
away" from M$ but only to provide a computing platform
that is suitable for knowledgeable programmers.

And users who are aware of the threats at hand in digital land.>

It is players like IBM/RedHat/Ubuntu that are peddling
the OS to total dummies.

Not total dummies but companies where IP personnel maintain
strict control of the system and individual who fall prey to the
Canonical advertising.


bliss - "Nearly any fool can use a Linux Computer..."
After all here I am...
Desire is the key...
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc



On 11/8/25 04:26, Diego Garcia wrote:

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 12:15:18 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 08/11/2025 11:56, Diego Garcia wrote:

Linux was/is made
by and for programmers.

You sure about that?
AFAICR Linus just decided Unix was too expensive and DOS was too crap.

I wasn't around back then but I believe that Torvalds began
Linux as a self-study project during graduate school in Finland.
Basically he wanted to explore memory management, context switching,
etc. on the latest (at that time) processors.

But whatever, it is quite certain that the contributors which
Linux eventually attracted were not motivated by a desire to
create a dummified Windows/Apple clone.

Then how did Ubuntu come into existence?
How did Mandrake come into existence?

And they did not create a dummified Clone of the Main
Commercial systems they create hundreds of varigated GNU/Linux
distribution even those a person like me could use and get
good results. No matter how these systems are set up they
are useful to the Users of those systems whether they are
intended to be used by programmers or people like me who
are capable of reading and following clear directions. Not
that after about 20 years of using Mandriva and its offshoots
I have not managed to learn about CLI commands and a
few matters outside of that typing limited tool.


bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2025.10 Linux 6.12.57-pclos1- KDE
Plasma 6.5.2
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 08 Nov 2025 16:05:32 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

I thought its purpose was to spread advertising.
At least that seems to be the purpose of Win11.
And then there's the whole surveillance angle...

As I understand it, back in the 1970's and 1980's,
the dominant mainframe time-sharing systems would
charge their customers a fee based on the amount
of CPU cycles which they consumed.

Indeed, a colleague of mine tells me that he once burned
up his entire annual computing budget in less than 10 minutes
by executing a math-intensive (very large matrix computation)
on one of these mainframe time-sharing systems.

The PC was supposed to have put an end to the time-sharing
model of computing, but things have now come full circle.

First there was javascript, where foreign code was executed
on personal computers FREE OF CHARGE. How's that for a
bargain? These foreign javascript programs consume quadrillions
of CPU cycles totally at the expense of the unwitting computer
owner.

Then there comes the "billboard" strategy where more quadrillions
of CPU cycles are executed, again at the expense of the owner,
in pushing advertising and collecting telemetry.

The US Congress should enact legislation where computer owners
would be compensated for all those quadrillions of CPU cycles.
But the US Congress is composed of technical derelicts that are
are stuck in the 19th century.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 08:38:42 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

Then how did Ubuntu come into existence?

A whole book could be written about the meretricious Ubuntu
distro. It, and its derivatives, is the epitome of GNU/Linux
degeneracy.

How did Mandrake come into existence?

I dunno. I believe that it was a RedHat clone.

It may have been good back in the early days but currently
it has necessarily inherited the degeneracy of its ancestors.

And they did not create a dummified Clone of the Main
Commercial systems they create hundreds of varigated GNU/Linux
distribution

No. There always have been just a small few GNU/Linux distros,
maybe only one or two. The rest of your "hundreds of variegated"
distros are just copies of those primordial distro types.

The only standouts, and the only true distros IMO, are "Linux From
Scratch" and "Gentoo."

even those a person like me could use and get
good results. No matter how these systems are set up they
are useful to the Users of those systems whether they are
intended to be used by programmers or people like me who
are capable of reading and following clear directions.

It is the software, which rides atop the OS, that is useful
to the user that is "incapable of reading and following clear
directions."

The problem with GNU/Linux distros is that they are abandoning
the software that appeals to the sophisticated programmer
in favor of software that appeals to the user who is "incapable
of reading and following clear directions."

In other words, the GNU/Linux distros have abandoned CHOICE and
it is the fundamental principle of CHOICE that has made GNU/Linux
a great OS.

Not
that after about 20 years of using Mandriva and its offshoots
I have not managed to learn about CLI commands and a
few matters outside of that typing limited tool.

It depends on ones background.

That's why on a television or a radio there are "channels" and
not frequencies.

But the personal computer offers the common man tremendous potential
and such potential should not be obscured by some distro-ordained
convenience.

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On Sat, 8 Nov 2025 08:29:55 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

"space-alien telepathic channel" = idiot-proof GUI = GNOME, KDE

Different levels of understanding by users make sure that no Desktop
Environment is Fool proof. Many people fail to understand how to setup KDE for their work patterns. I learned about GUI on the Amiga and since
then try to
emulate my Amiga work patterns.
Gnome is far less adaptable and might be called fool-proof but I doubt that
any but the CLIa are truely fool proof oh but look idiot deleted files
with "rm"
that run his expensive or cheap hardware.

A "desktop environment" is not the definition of computing, but most Linux users
believe that it is.

I suppose that's true because a lot of Linux users come from Microsoft where the DE is the only default interface.

I don't want to expound the various aspects of the human-machine interface.
It would require a whole book to do that.

But the CLI is fundamental. It cannot be escaped. All GUIs and DEs just
ride upon the CLI.

Both the CLI "shell" and the GUI "shell" just ultimately pass arguments
to the kernel exec() system call.

The GUI (DE) is just an often tremendously convenient method for passing such arguments.

I cannot disagree with the GUI idea but the DE actually employs unnecessary auxiliary, and highly bloated, programs to appropriate such simple actions.

Not total dummies but companies where IP personnel maintain
strict control of the system and individual who fall prey to the
Canonical advertising.

That is another significant problem.

Corporations/companies want uniform software systems. Needless to say, GNU/Linux does not really offer that uniformity, and that is why IBM/RedHat
and other distro bloodsuckers want to destroy CHOICE and build a GNU/Linux distro according to their bloodsucking corporate specifications.

I am sorry to say, but it is listless and acquiescent users like you
that letting RedHat take over GNU/Linux development.


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/11/2025 18:31, Diego Garcia wrote:

But the CLI is fundamental. It cannot be escaped. All GUIs and DEs just ride upon the CLI.

Do they really?

AFAIAC only if 'sh' or bash' is in the process list, the process is not
a CLI

On this machine only three user level shells are running

Everything else is run by sytsemd etc etc

Or by the GUI
--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels




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From Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc

On 08/11/2025 16:38, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

they create hundreds of varigated GNU/Linux
distribution even those a person like me could use and get
good results.

For once I agree with you
--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2