From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

Privacy: How to decouple GPS navigation from cellular geolocation.

In other words, how to decoupled GNSS navigation from tower geolocation.
This "trick" forces Google Maps to runs with satellite-only positioning.

Hotspot phone:
Exposes only tower metadata + IP, but no GNSS/location apps.
Privacy phone:
Exposes only GNSS fixes, with traffic masked behind the hotspot's IP.


Both phones are set to:
Wi-Fi scanning: OFF
Bluetooth scanning: OFF
Google Location Accuracy: OFF
No Google account and Location History: OFF

With these settings, the location teardrop tile state affects:
a. Whether apps can use GPS for location
b. But we have to have "Use precise location" on for each app to use GPS

With these settings, the cellular data tile affects
a. Just that the IP address can be geolocated

With these settings, the Wi-Fi tile state does not change
a. What's uploaded to Google (i.e., zero Wi-Fi APs)
b. What's used for location (i.e., zero Wi-Fi APs)
c. But if it connects to open access points, it can be geolocated

So turn off any capacity to accidentally connect to open APs
Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Intelligent Wi-Fi
Switch to mobile data = on (affects data geolocation)
Switch to better Wi-Fi networks = on (affects wifi geolocation)
Turn WI-FI on/off automatically = off (grayed out)
Detect suspicious networks = on <== warning for open networks!

Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Advanced settings
Network notification = off (ignore requests from open networks)
Manage networks (forget any open networks you've ever joined)

Unfortunately, on Android 13, you cannot selectively disable
cell-tower-based location while still using the cellular network.
a. The cellular tile will allow cell-tower fused location

We can disable Wi-Fi and Bluetooth scanning, but there's no
equivalent toggle for disabling cell tower scanning other than
turning off the cellular voice tile (which isn't practical).

The only trick I can think of is to have two phones in the car.
a. Privacy phone (cellular data & cellular voice turned off)
b. Hotspot phone (serving a hotspot over cellular data)

In this case, Google Maps on the privacy phone sees only GNSS-based
location and the cellular IP of the hotspot phone. Google Maps on
the privacy phone cannot see cell-tower IDs.

In summary, the privacy advantage of the two-phone system is that
a. There is no cell tower geolocation possible on the privacy phone
Because its cellular radio is OFF, it never registers with towers.
That means no tower IDs are available for coarse location.
b. Location is purely GNSS (satellites) + on-device sensors.
c. Google sees the hotspot phone's cellular IP address

The advantage is that you decouple navigation from cellular geolocation.
a. Google Maps on the privacy phone sees only satellite-based location
and the hotspot's geolocatable IP, not tower IDs.
b. This setup prevents tower-based location leaks on the privacy phone
while still giving the privacy phone navigation app internet access.
c. Google Maps sees the hotspot phone's cellular IP address as the source

The hotspot phone is essentially just a data pipe whose location services
don't feed into the privacy phone's GNSS-only navigation.

GNSS navigation is isolated on one device, while tower metadata stays on
the other. Both are never fused into the navigation session.
--
This is a trick. I don't expect people to do it. But it should work.
It decouples GPS location from cellular data location on Android 13.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

On 07/11/2025 04:24, Marion wrote:

Privacy: How to decouple GPS navigation from cellular geolocation.

In other words, how to decoupled GNSS navigation from tower geolocation.
This "trick" forces Google Maps to runs with satellite-only positioning.

Hotspot phone:
Exposes only tower metadata + IP, but no GNSS/location apps.
Privacy phone:
Exposes only GNSS fixes, with traffic masked behind the hotspot's IP.

Both phones are set to:
Wi-Fi scanning: OFF
Bluetooth scanning: OFF
Google Location Accuracy: OFF
No Google account and Location History: OFF

With these settings, the location teardrop tile state affects:
a. Whether apps can use GPS for location
b. But we have to have "Use precise location" on for each app to use GPS

With these settings, the cellular data tile affects
a. Just that the IP address can be geolocated

With these settings, the Wi-Fi tile state does not change
a. What's uploaded to Google (i.e., zero Wi-Fi APs)
b. What's used for location (i.e., zero Wi-Fi APs)
c. But if it connects to open access points, it can be geolocated

So turn off any capacity to accidentally connect to open APs
Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Intelligent Wi-Fi
Switch to mobile data = on (affects data geolocation)
Switch to better Wi-Fi networks = on (affects wifi geolocation)
Turn WI-FI on/off automatically = off (grayed out)
Detect suspicious networks = on <== warning for open networks!

Settings > Connections > Wi-Fi > 3dots > Advanced settings
Network notification = off (ignore requests from open networks)
Manage networks (forget any open networks you've ever joined)

Unfortunately, on Android 13, you cannot selectively disable
cell-tower-based location while still using the cellular network.
a. The cellular tile will allow cell-tower fused location

We can disable Wi-Fi and Bluetooth scanning, but there's no
equivalent toggle for disabling cell tower scanning other than
turning off the cellular voice tile (which isn't practical).

The only trick I can think of is to have two phones in the car.
a. Privacy phone (cellular data & cellular voice turned off)
b. Hotspot phone (serving a hotspot over cellular data)

In this case, Google Maps on the privacy phone sees only GNSS-based
location and the cellular IP of the hotspot phone. Google Maps on
the privacy phone cannot see cell-tower IDs.

In summary, the privacy advantage of the two-phone system is that
a. There is no cell tower geolocation possible on the privacy phone
Because its cellular radio is OFF, it never registers with towers.
That means no tower IDs are available for coarse location.
b. Location is purely GNSS (satellites) + on-device sensors.
c. Google sees the hotspot phone's cellular IP address

The advantage is that you decouple navigation from cellular geolocation.
a. Google Maps on the privacy phone sees only satellite-based location
and the hotspot's geolocatable IP, not tower IDs.
b. This setup prevents tower-based location leaks on the privacy phone
while still giving the privacy phone navigation app internet access.
c. Google Maps sees the hotspot phone's cellular IP address as the source

The hotspot phone is essentially just a data pipe whose location services don't feed into the privacy phone's GNSS-only navigation.

GNSS navigation is isolated on one device, while tower metadata stays on
the other. Both are never fused into the navigation session.

That's a good summary. I wondered about how something like GrapheneOS
would deal with this issue, and came across this: <https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9539-ok-to-use-location-services>

Looks interesting, but it is almost 3 years old, and phone OSs are
constantly changing. Then I found a comment from earlier this year which somewhat puzzles me. See <https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114076802185042394>:
"We're in the process of building our own network location database
based on scraping all of the cell tower and Wi-Fi data from Apple's
service."

I had no idea that GrapheneOS was using Apple info. Do the other
"degoogled" Android OSs also use Apple info?

If we get well OT and look at PinephoneOS, etc, then perhaps somewhere
GeoClue will be running. At least we don't have to worry about the
Mozilla Location Service, as that's been discontinued.

I guess I /might/ just be able to leave that tinfoil hat in its box... ;-)
--
Jeff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

Jeff Layman wrote:

That's a good summary. I wondered about how something like GrapheneOS
would deal with this issue, and came across this: <https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9539-ok-to-use-location-services>
Looks interesting, but it is almost 3 years old, and phone OSs are constantly changing. Then I found a comment from earlier this year which somewhat puzzles me. See <https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114076802185042394>:
"We're in the process of building our own network location database
based on scraping all of the cell tower and Wi-Fi data from Apple's service."

I had no idea that GrapheneOS was using Apple info. Do the other
"degoogled" Android OSs also use Apple info?

If we get well OT and look at PinephoneOS, etc, then perhaps somewhere GeoClue will be running. At least we don't have to worry about the
Mozilla Location Service, as that's been discontinued.

I guess I /might/ just be able to leave that tinfoil hat in its box... ;-)

Hi Jeff,

The point of this thread is to decouple from the fused location provider.

If you recall, from probably a couple of years ago, YOU first taught me
about the "fused location provider", which is what is fusing all the
different types of signals (GPS + Wi-Fi + Bluetooth + cell tower IDs).

Apps like Google Maps don�t talk directly to GPS or cell towers.
They ask the fused location provider for the location.
And the fused location provider gives them a "combined" location.

The fused location provider incorporates a half-dozen location inputs.
a. GNSS augmentation (GPS, GLONASS, Galileo, BeiDou)
b. Crowdsourced Wi-Fi databases
c. Crowdsourced Bluetooth databases
d. The last known saved location
e. Barometric sensors (altimeter)
f. Inertial sensors (accelerometer, gyroscope, and magnetometer)

On stock'ish Android (like my Samsung which has a bootloader that is not
known to be unlockable), GrapheneOS isn't an option, but we can still
decouple our GPS radios from the fused location provider's collection.

The fused location provider is part of Google Play Services.
1. Google Play Services === com.google.android.gms
2. Inside of com.google.android.gms are classes
3. One of those classes is com.google.android.gms.location
4. In that is com.google.android.gms.location.FusedLocationProviderClient

Any app that wants to use the fused location provider simply incorporates
the FusedLocationProviderClient into its source code.

Once the FusedLocationProviderClient is incorporated into any app's source code, then that app can make calls to the Fused Location Provider server.

Notice that while the Fused Location Provider can "fuse" data, the
COLLECTION of that data and the UPLOAD of that data is separate.

The purpose of this thread is to prevent the COLLECTION & UPLOAD of the
data that the fused location provider is using, and as a result, to force
the fused location provider to use ONLY the GPS data (and nothing else).

I'm sure LOTS MORE can be done for privacy with GrapheneOS, but it's not an option for me as my phone is not known to be rootable. So I can't answer
your grapheneOS questions but I'm sure others here can answer them.

In summary, the trick I devised for this privacy thread is to turn off all
the fused locations that are possible to turn off and then to decouple the privacy phone from the data phone so as to remove the rest of the data.

The only thing left on the privacy phone is the GPS (plus sensor data).
(IMHO) It's a brilliant idea because it's cleverly focused on privacy.

But I don't actually expect anyone to use this two-phone method.
It's more of a thought experiment, than a tutorial for common use.
--
Sometimes we learn a lot about Android just from devising ways to improve
the privacy on Android, which, admittedly, is a challenging task to do.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

Jeff Layman wrote:

Marion wrote:

Hotspot phone:
  Exposes only tower metadata + IP, but no GNSS/location apps.
Privacy phone:
  Exposes only GNSS fixes, with traffic masked behind the hotspot's IP.

I guess I /might/ just be able to leave that tinfoil hat in its box... ;-)

But are you prepared to carry two phones?


--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

On 08/11/2025 09:34, Andy Burns wrote:

Jeff Layman wrote:

Marion wrote:

Hotspot phone:
  Exposes only tower metadata + IP, but no GNSS/location apps.
Privacy phone:
  Exposes only GNSS fixes, with traffic masked behind the hotspot's IP. >>

I guess I /might/ just be able to leave that tinfoil hat in its box... ;-)

But are you prepared to carry two phones?

I can barely remember to take /one/ phone out!

I've turned off all I can, but I'm not convinced that is all I need to
do. As I noticed a couple of years ago, I hadn't even been aware of
"fused location", and I only found that because it use "location" in its
name. Well, even assuming the phone can track me, I use it only for very limited browsing when I'm out. I have no pay or banking apps on it.
--
Jeff
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

Andy Burns wrote:

Hotspot phone:
� Exposes only tower metadata + IP, but no GNSS/location apps.
Privacy phone:
� Exposes only GNSS fixes, with traffic masked behind the hotspot's IP.

I guess I /might/ just be able to leave that tinfoil hat in its box... ;-)

But are you prepared to carry two phones?

Hi Andy,

You're a smart guy so you can understand the strategic intent of this
thread, given that it's intended to discuss a new toggle in Android:

*Use _cell tower ID_ in the fused-location provider = on/off*

This is a How To do it. That's all. It's NOT a recommendation to do it.
It's just the only way I can find to thwart the fused-location provider.

*Effectively, this creates a "Use Tower ID = on/off" toggle*

Specifically, since there is no toggle to prevent use of cell tower IDs in location services, this is the only way I know (so far) to add a toggle.

It's a brilliantly clever idea but even I agree that it's not practical.
It's meant only to help all of us (me included) learn how Android works.

Let me be clear that this discussion is the stuff of spy novels and not necessarily the everyday guy who wants the utmost in privacy while using
Google Maps (where the absurdity of that combination is not lost on me).

What happened was I have already long ago turn off not only the upload of
data to Google by my phone, but also the upload by YOUR phone (figuratively speaking).

As you're likely aware, most people on iOS & Android are incredibly rude.
Every phone that walks by your house and mine uploads our personal data.

Well, your house.
Not mine.

But that's been done so I'm happy nothing is being uploaded to Google when people walk by my house, and when my phone happens to be near your house.

In summary, it's absurd to even think of using Google Maps in the context
of privacy; but if we do use Maps, this will force it to use GPS only.
--
The point of this discussion is a thought experiement as even I won't go to
the trouble of using two phones just to thwart use of the cell tower IDs.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.mobile.android

Jeff Layman wrote:

But are you prepared to carry two phones?

I can barely remember to take /one/ phone out!

I've turned off all I can, but I'm not convinced that is all I need to
do. As I noticed a couple of years ago, I hadn't even been aware of
"fused location", and I only found that because it use "location" in its name. Well, even assuming the phone can track me, I use it only for very limited browsing when I'm out. I have no pay or banking apps on it.

I thank you (and Andy) for teaching me the most I know about Android.
You taught me about fused location's existence, for example. Years ago.

This thread is a theoretical (not practical) discussion about "defeating"
the fused-location provider for cellular phone towers when mapping online.

*Notice that mapping online is different than mapping offline.*

It's trivial to defeat the fused-location provider when mapping offline.
It's mapping online where it's difficult to defeat fused location action.

This thread is extremely important because it covers HOW Android works. Specifically, how LOCATION works on Android when using *online* mapping.

Notice it's (almost) absurd to expect privacy when using *online* mapping.
However...
If we don't understand the topic, we don't understand how location works.

Worse... If we read only what Google says, we'll *never* understand it! :)
*Manage Android location settings*
<https://support.google.com/android/answer/3467281>

Android does NOT provide toggles to control all the ways location works.
*Use Wi-Fi access point = on/off*
*Use bluetooth beacons = on/off*

This thread simply adds a new privacy toggle that Android does not provide.
*Use cellular tower identification = on/off*

It's not intended to be "practical" (because using online mapping is absurd
if privacy is involved). You would use offline mapping on airplane mode.

But as a DISCUSSION TOPIC, it shows how the fused-location provider works.
--
Sometimes you learn the most about Android simply by trying to turn off all
the location gathering, saving & uploading that Google forces upon Android.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2