• Does D simulated by H reach its own "return" statement?

    From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory on Mon Nov 3 17:28:03 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
    abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
    "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to see whether that simulated
    execution ever reaches a return statement. Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@[email protected] to comp.theory on Tue Nov 4 12:10:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
    abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
    "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to see whether that simulated
    execution ever reaches a return statement. Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.ai.philosophy on Tue Nov 4 07:56:17 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.


    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    So you are just playing head games?
    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok disagree*

    https://claude.ai/chat/20e90782-8ba5-47bb-8010-ba61dddc965e

    https://chatgpt.com/share/690a0034-3a38-8011-af40-e29d65bcd67b

    https://grok.com/share/c2hhcmQtNQ%3D%3D_4db4be62-3c03-4915-9aa6-b72b807f8e0b


    https://gemini.google.com/app/34277821f66e30f4

    Looking at this step-by-step based purely on what
    H observes during its literal simulation: When H simulates D():

    First simulated instruction: D calls H(D) H observes: The
    simulated D is now calling H(D), which would call H(D),
    which would call H(D)... Pattern detected: H sees an infinite
    recursion pattern - the simulation shows D calling H(D)
    repeatedly with no path to a return statement being reached
    in the simulation

    Based on your specification that H should "detect a non-terminating
    behavior pattern" and then "abort simulation and return 0", H(D)
    should return 0. This is what H observes in its literal simulation:

    D calls H(D) That simulated call would perform another simulation
    of D Which calls H(D) again This creates an infinite recursive
    simulation pattern The simulation never reaches the return Halt_Status; statement

    Since the simulation detects this non-terminating recursive
    pattern, H aborts the simulation and returns 0 according to rule
    (a). The key point: H is making its decision based solely on what
    it observes during simulation - an infinite recursion that never
    reaches a return statement in the simulated execution.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@[email protected] to comp.theory on Wed Nov 5 12:53:48 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory on Wed Nov 5 05:37:15 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.


    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@[email protected] to comp.theory on Thu Nov 6 10:55:31 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-05 11:37:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out
    any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.

    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.

    If does not form a proof of anything.

    That H(D) rejects a halting computation means that H is not a halt
    decider. Whether not being a halt decider is "correct" depends on
    which norm H is compared to.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory on Thu Nov 6 04:54:43 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/6/2025 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-05 11:37:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your
    perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out >>>>>>> any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.

    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.

    If does not form a proof of anything.


    The proof would be my reviewers actually knowing C
    programming and being able to do their own execution
    trace. I am shocked that so many people interested
    in computer science theory are so clueless about
    ordinary C programming.

    That H(D) rejects a halting computation means that H is not a halt
    decider. Whether not being a halt decider is "correct" depends on
    which norm H is compared to.


    When N instructions of D are simulated by H
    according to the semantics of the C programming
    language it is dead obvious that D cannot possibly
    reach its own "return" statement final halt state
    by anyone that is not totally clueless about C
    programming. It took three years before someone
    showed up that was not totally clueless about C.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Mikko@[email protected] to comp.theory on Fri Nov 7 10:26:01 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-06 10:54:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/6/2025 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-05 11:37:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your >>>>>>>> perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out >>>>>>>> any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.

    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.

    If does not form a proof of anything.

    The proof would be my reviewers actually knowing C
    programming and being able to do their own execution
    trace.

    No, that would not be a proof. A proof is a seuence of sentences,
    each of which either is a premise or follows from earlier sentences
    in the proof by a truth-preserving transformatios. The proof proves
    its last sentence, which is called the concluson of the proof.
    --
    Mikko

    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.c,comp.ai.philosophy on Fri Nov 7 08:04:22 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/7/2025 2:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-06 10:54:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/6/2025 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-05 11:37:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your >>>>>>>>> perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out >>>>>>>>> any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said
    "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.

    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.

    If does not form a proof of anything.

    The proof would be my reviewers actually knowing C
    programming and being able to do their own execution
    trace.

    No, that would not be a proof. A proof is a seuence of sentences,

    A proof is any damn thing that shows a conclusion
    is necessarily true.

    When we start with the semantics of the C programming
    language and this finite string of ASCII characters
    defining the C function D:

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    And the knowledge that H is a C interpreter
    that takes the above test.c file as an input
    and knows that the call to H(D) in D calls
    itself to simulate the text body of D then
    the execution trace proves that D simulated
    by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    each of which either is a premise or follows from earlier sentences
    in the proof by a truth-preserving transformatios. The proof proves
    its last sentence, which is called the concluson of the proof.

    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
    --- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From olcott@[email protected] to comp.theory on Fri Nov 7 09:06:06 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/7/2025 8:55 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:38 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 8:35 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:28 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 8:12 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:06 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 7:43 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 06:55 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 4:45 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Thu, 06 Nov 2025 20:46:57 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 11/6/2025 7:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

    No, what doesn't halt is H' simulating D'.  H' is a different decider
    which is just a UTM. Ih the language of our "concrete example" it does
    this:
    Not exactly. Your H is a UTM in a for loop.
    No, it is bounded.

    In D_prime, the H_prime call does not return. It never reaches its the
    "do opposite" logic. We completely agree!
    But D_prime is not D, and H_prime is not H.

    You have been trying to say that this: that /if/, /hypothetically/, >>>>>>>>>>> H were not to abort the simulation of D, then it would turn into H' >>>>>>>>>>> and therefore D would turn into D'.  And because that D' is >>>>>>>>>>> nonterminating, it is somehow "philosophically okay" for H to claim >>>>>>>>>>> that D is nonterminating, because D' is nonterminating.  You claim that
    the H decision is correct because it should be interpreted as being >>>>>>>>>>> really about D'.

    I have no idea what you are saying here.

    Yes, what’s giving you trouble?


    What you actually mean is that the true input to H is D'! >>>>>>>>>> In the updated version a finite string of ASCII characters that defines
    a C function that calls its own C interpreter.
    If it depends on an arbitrary function with a fixed name, then it’s not
    a single function/program with a definite halting status.

    Somewhat separately from that, I don't agree that D' could ever be >>>>>>>>>>> considered the finite string input
    Then you are rejecting reality.
    Is that what you mean? H replaces the call from D to H with a call to >>>>>>>>> a UTM and simulates that?

    When you ask Mary a yes/no question she is not in a different parallel
    universe depending on her answer.
    You think she can answer both at once?

    Mike Terry even produced a clean HHH and DD pair of test cases which
    eliminate all shared, mutable, static data.

    He actually observed the start of the tower; seeing numerous levels of
    D simulations starting up --- and individually terminating. >>>>>>>>>
    That only happens when you screw up the specified execution trace. >>>>>>>>> You haven’t shown that. H could easily save the state of the simulation,
    return 0, and later you call a UTM with the saved state, which then halts.

    It flat out nutty to do anything at all besides reject an input when the
    behavior OF THIS INPUT CORRECTLY MATCHES A CORRECT NON-HALTING BEHAVIOR
    PATTERN.
    It just seems like you and Mike fail to understand CORRECT NON-HALTING
    BEHAVIOR PATTERNS.

    Your pattern is not correct, because it ignores that D calls the >>>>>>>>> halting H.

    D simulated by the executed H does not call any halting H.

    Then its the wrong 'H'. Read the Halting Problem carefully.

    In HP proof, the counter-case D refers to the real DECIDER that reports the
    result, not something else.

    You think that D runs forever because it calls the non-
    decider H. There can be no correct patterns in the diagonal case. >>>>>>>>
    If this is your most fundamental belief it may seem
    that way. Four LLM systems now understand my system
    and they figured it out on their own and proved that
    they are correct.

    Ask all LLM's, they are not responsible for their answer.

    Every fix to the detection logic gives rise to a new program that >>>>>>>>> doesn’t match it.


    int D()
    {
          int Halt_Status = H(D);
          if (Halt_Status)
            HERE: goto HERE;
          return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
          H(D);
          return 0;
    }

    H simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)

    If H claims it is a halt decider (i.e. H(x)==1 iff x() halts),
    D has no way to return.

    Until H aborts.

    Manual 'abort'? or You lie the H(D) in main is the H(D) in D.

    This is just ordinary C that no one
    here understands. I have been programming
    in C since K & R was the standard.

    Only you the idiot do not understand what program is.

    I know your final (or next step) is playing god, go ahead proving your >>>>>>> head is harder than the stone (and the chick is thicker than steel). >>>>>>>

    When we start with the semantics of the C programming
    language and this finite string of ASCII characters
    defining the C function D:

    int D()
    {
         int Halt_Status = H(D);
         if (Halt_Status)
           HERE: goto HERE;
         return Halt_Status;
    }

    And the knowledge that H is a C interpreter
    that takes the above test.c file as an input
    and knows that the call to H(D) in D calls
    itself to simulate the text body of D then
    the execution trace proves that D simulated
    by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    So the correct answer of Halting Problem is undecidable. Agree.


    It might seem that way if you didn't understand
    a word that I just said

    You are false god. What you said is garbage.

    and don't know anything
    about programming in C.

    No one here (except you) who need debugger to explain C 'semantic'.
    And see the assembly dump as 'proof'. Wake up, idiot.


    If I was incorrect then you could show what
    the correct execution trace should be.

    First of all, the correct halt decider does not exist.

    Changing the subject is known as the strawman deception
    it is what cheaters do when they have no actual rebuttal
    and still want to be disagreeable.

    I am only talking about D simulated by H.

    We can only 'experiment'
    by assumptions.... But you know the liar's paradox well, so I save this.

    If you refer to POOH, no one can reproduce POOH, POOH is considered as non-existent.


    I have a bunch of steps if you reject the first
    step out-of-hand because you don't understand C
    then we can't move on to the next step.

    If
    you lack the skill to show this and still
    want to disagree then you can be ignored.

    Sure, you can ignore all and believe garbage.



    That you don't even understand what I am saying
    is not my error.
    --
    Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
    hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • From wij@[email protected] to comp.theory on Sat Nov 8 00:07:54 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 09:53 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 9:34 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 09:20 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 9:17 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 09:06 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 8:55 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:38 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 8:35 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:28 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 8:12 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 08:06 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 7:43 AM, wij wrote:
    On Fri, 2025-11-07 at 06:55 -0600, olcott wrote:
    On 11/7/2025 4:45 AM, joes wrote:
    Am Thu, 06 Nov 2025 20:46:57 -0600 schrieb olcott:
    On 11/6/2025 7:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:

    No, what doesn't halt is H' simulating D'.  H' is a different decider
    which is just a UTM. Ih the language of our "concrete example" it does
    this:
    Not exactly. Your H is a UTM in a for loop.
    No, it is bounded.

    In D_prime, the H_prime call does not return. It never reaches its the
    "do opposite" logic. We completely agree!
    But D_prime is not D, and H_prime is not H.

    You have been trying to say that this: that /if/, /hypothetically/,
    H were not to abort the simulation of D, then it would turn into H'
    and therefore D would turn into D'.  And because that D' is
    nonterminating, it is somehow "philosophically okay" for H to claim
    that D is nonterminating, because D' is nonterminating.  You claim
    that
    the H decision is correct because it should be interpreted as being
    really about D'.

    I have no idea what you are saying here.

    Yes, what’s giving you trouble?


    What you actually mean is that the true input to H is D'!
    In the updated version a finite string of ASCII characters that defines
    a C function that calls its own C interpreter.
    If it depends on an arbitrary function with a fixed name, then it’s not
    a single function/program with a definite halting status.

    Somewhat separately from that, I don't agree that D' could ever be
    considered the finite string input
    Then you are rejecting reality.
    Is that what you mean? H replaces the call from D to H with a call to
    a UTM and simulates that?

    When you ask Mary a yes/no question she is not in a different parallel
    universe depending on her answer.
    You think she can answer both at once?

    Mike Terry even produced a clean HHH and DD pair of test cases which
    eliminate all shared, mutable, static data.

    He actually observed the start of the tower; seeing numerous levels of
    D simulations starting up --- and individually terminating.

    That only happens when you screw up the specified execution trace.
    You haven’t shown that. H could easily save the state of the simulation,
    return 0, and later you call a UTM with the saved state, which then halts.

    It flat out nutty to do anything at all besides reject an input when the
    behavior OF THIS INPUT CORRECTLY MATCHES A CORRECT NON-HALTING BEHAVIOR
    PATTERN.
    It just seems like you and Mike fail to understand CORRECT NON-HALTING
    BEHAVIOR PATTERNS.

    Your pattern is not correct, because it ignores that D calls the
    halting H.

    D simulated by the executed H does not call any halting H.

    Then its the wrong 'H'. Read the Halting Problem carefully.

    In HP proof, the counter-case D refers to the real DECIDER that reports the
    result, not something else.

    You think that D runs forever because it calls the non-
    decider H. There can be no correct patterns in the diagonal case.

    If this is your most fundamental belief it may seem that way. Four LLM systems now understand my system and they figured it out on their own and proved that they are correct.

    Ask all LLM's, they are not responsible for their answer.

    Every fix to the detection logic gives rise to a new program that
    doesn’t match it.


    int D()
    {
             int Halt_Status = H(D);          if (Halt_Status)            HERE: goto HERE;          return Halt_Status;
    }

    int main()
    {
             H(D);
             return 0;
    }

    H simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)
    that simulates D that calls H(D)

    If H claims it is a halt decider (i.e. H(x)==1 iff x() halts),
    D has no way to return.

    Until H aborts.

    Manual 'abort'? or You lie the H(D) in main is the H(D) in D.

    This is just ordinary C that no one
    here understands. I have been programming
    in C since K & R was the standard.

    Only you the idiot do not understand what program is.

    I know your final (or next step) is playing god, go ahead proving your
    head is harder than the stone (and the chick is thicker than steel).


    When we start with the semantics of the C programming language and this finite string of ASCII characters defining the C function D:

    int D()
    {
            int Halt_Status = H(D);
            if (Halt_Status)
              HERE: goto HERE;
            return Halt_Status;
    }

    And the knowledge that H is a C interpreter
    that takes the above test.c file as an input
    and knows that the call to H(D) in D calls
    itself to simulate the text body of D then
    the execution trace proves that D simulated
    by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    So the correct answer of Halting Problem is undecidable. Agree.


    It might seem that way if you didn't understand
    a word that I just said

    You are false god. What you said is garbage.

    and don't know anything
    about programming in C.

    No one here (except you) who need debugger to explain C 'semantic'.
    And see the assembly dump as 'proof'. Wake up, idiot.


    If I was incorrect then you could show what
    the correct execution trace should be.

    First of all, the correct halt decider does not exist.

    Changing the subject is known as the strawman deception
    it is what cheaters do when they have no actual rebuttal
    and still want to be disagreeable.

    I am only talking about D simulated by H.

    I have no problem of "D simulated by (POO) H", except if you claim the HP proof
    is refuted is a big problem.

    As to the constantly changing POOH, many people have already explained to you.


    So you accept that D simulated by H cannot possibly
    reach its own simulated "return" statement?

    Repeat:

    int D()
    {
         int Halt_Status = H(D);
         if (Halt_Status)
            HERE: goto HERE;
         return Halt_Status;
    }

    If the H(D) in D above is a halt decider, D() cannot return. (the last line, obvious)

    As to "D simulated by H", that is Peter Olcott's Own Problem, not what
    the HP concerns.
    If you want to understand 'the simulating H', people already explained.


    In other words you dishonestly dodge the direct
    question because:
    (a) You are dishonest
    (b) You are clueless about C
    (c) You want to be disagreeable no matter what the facts are

    Which is it?

    That you think it is irrelevant is not an excuse
    because I can only show relevance after this point
    is made. Thus thinking it is irrelevant is (a) and (b).
    Save the trick.
    There is one scenio I may missed your 'words'. If as I guessed, you can just be dead to save olcott. Or you don't?
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  • From Mikko@[email protected] to comp.theory on Sat Nov 8 10:19:46 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 2025-11-07 14:04:22 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/7/2025 2:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-06 10:54:43 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/6/2025 2:55 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-05 11:37:15 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/5/2025 4:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-04 13:56:17 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/4/2025 4:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
    On 2025-11-03 23:28:03 +0000, olcott said:

    On 11/2/2025 6:28 AM, Mikko wrote:

    Irrelevant here. I said "Perhaps you should try to improve your >>>>>>>>>> perfirmance in the art of excution traces". You didn't ppint out >>>>>>>>>> any error or incoherence in that sentence. Instead you said >>>>>>>>>> "There is no mistake in the essence of above."


    *Claude, ChatGPGT, Gemini and Grok all agree on this*
    *links provided below*

    int D()
    {
       int Halt_Status = H(D);
       if (Halt_Status)
         HERE: goto HERE;
       return Halt_Status;
    }

    The function H is a simulating termination analyzer:
    (a) Detects a non-terminating behavior pattern:
         abort simulation and return 0.
    (b) Simulated input reaches its simulated
         "return" statement: return 1.

    When given a function P, it literally simulates each
    step of executing P() to *see whether that simulated*
    *execution ever reaches a return statement* Now let H
    simulate D. Based only on the outcome of that literal
    simulation (not on reasoning about what should happen),
    what result should H(D) produce?

    That is irrelevant to anything in the quoted text.

    You didn't even pay attention to the words the last paragraph.

    Everything in the last paragraph, including the question, is
    as ifrrelevant as the text before.

    One should also note that you didn't identify any relevance.

    It forms a proof that H(D) is correct to reject (D).
    That you didn't see that proves that you are not
    paying close enough attention.

    If does not form a proof of anything.

    The proof would be my reviewers actually knowing C
    programming and being able to do their own execution
    trace.

    No, that would not be a proof. A proof is a seuence of sentences,

    A proof is any damn thing that shows a conclusion
    is necessarily true.

    It is not a proof if you it doesn't show without a proof that it shows.

    When we start with the semantics of the C programming
    language and this finite string of ASCII characters
    defining the C function D:

    int D()
    {
    int Halt_Status = H(D);
    if (Halt_Status)
    HERE: goto HERE;
    return Halt_Status;
    }

    This does not define a behaviour. The knowledge whether H(D) returns and
    what value it returns if it does or what it does instead if it does not
    is needed in order to know the behavour.

    And the knowledge that H is a C interpreter
    that takes the above test.c file as an input
    and knows that the call to H(D) in D calls
    itself to simulate the text body of D then
    the execution trace proves that D simulated
    by H cannot possibly reach its own simulated
    "return" statement final halt state.

    This is not a well formed sentence of Common Language. The "and" on the
    third line is between the noun "the knowledge" and the verb "knows" but it
    is impossible to construct a sentence where both are valid in the initial position. COnsequently nothing is shown.
    --
    Mikko

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  • From dbush@[email protected] to comp.theory on Sat Nov 8 08:55:41 2025
    From Newsgroup: comp.theory

    On 11/8/2025 8:25 AM, olcott wrote:
    I am talking about correct semantic logical entailment
    on the basis of self-evident truths. A self-evident
    truth is proven true entirely on the basis of its meaning.

    For example, a finite string description of a Turing machine is
    stipulated to specify all semantic properties of the machine it
    describes, including whether or not the described machine halts when
    executed directly.
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