On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just
simulate it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there
it is. The same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time
to find out may be longer.
D simulated by H according to the semantics of the C programmingH simulates D that calls H(D) to simulate D that calls H(D) to
simulate D that calls H(D) to simulate D that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D until H sees this repeating pattern.
And what happens if it sees?
language until H correctly determines that its simulated D cannot
possibly reach its own simulated "return" statement correctly rejects D
on this basis not some other basis.
Make sure that you see the word "until"
On 2025-11-01 13:39:53 +0000, olcott said:
On 11/1/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-31 12:21:55 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:
Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.
I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H >>>>>>>>>>>> (it's
trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines >>>>>>>>>>>> that P(P)
*would* never stop running *unless* aborted. He knows and >>>>>>>>>>>> accepts that
P(P) actually does stop. The wrong answer is justified by >>>>>>>>>>>> what would
happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they >>>>>>>>>>>> actually are.
*This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words* >>>>>>>>>>And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine >>>>>>>>>> that DD halts?
The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input. >>>>>>>>>>> When the
halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior" >>>>>>>>>>> dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to >>>>>>>>>>> report on
something outside its input - hence, a category error.
*Every* single program is decidable.
To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. >>>>>>>>> Just simulate
it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it >>>>>>>>> is. The
same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to >>>>>>>>> find out
may be linger.
int D()
{
int Halt_Status = H(D);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}
H simulates D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
until H sees this repeating pattern.
And what happens if it sees?
D simulated by H according to the semantics
of the C programming language until H correctly
determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
reach its own simulated "return" statement
correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
basis.
This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
There is only one D above.
Thousands of times I refer to D simulated by H
and despicably dishonest people use the despicably
dishonest tactic of strawman to refer to the directly
executed D as their rebuttal.
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
On 03/11/2025 23:37, olcott wrote:
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
It's the same D with different closure, when we're talking theory. It's
only a different D when we're talking ordinary programming where D is a template for a running procedure and each time you call D you "get
another D".
On 03/11/2025 23:37, olcott wrote:
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
It's the same D with different closure, when we're talking theory. It's
only a different D when we're talking ordinary programming where D is a template for a running procedure and each time you call D you "get
another D".
--
Tristan Wibberley
The message body is Copyright (C) 2025 Tristan Wibberley except
citations and quotations noted. All Rights Reserved except that you may,
of course, cite it academically giving credit to me, distribute it
verbatim as part of a usenet system or its archives, and use it to
promote my greatness and general superiority without misrepresentation
of my opinions other than my opinion of my greatness and general
superiority which you _may_ misrepresent. You definitely MAY NOT train
any production AI system with it but you may train experimental AI that
will only be used for evaluation of the AI methods it implements.
On 11/3/2025 7:02 PM, Tristan Wibberley wrote:
On 03/11/2025 23:37, olcott wrote:
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
It's the same D with different closure, when we're talking theory. It's
only a different D when we're talking ordinary programming where D is a
template for a running procedure and each time you call D you "get
another D".
It is a verified fact that D simulated by H cannot
possibly reach its own "return" statement final halt
state and D simulated by H1 halts.
This exact same thing happens in the Peter Linz
Turing machine based proof.
*From the bottom of page 319 has been adapted to this* https://www.liarparadox.org/Peter_Linz_HP_317-320.pdf
On 2025-11-04, Tristan Wibberley <[email protected]> wrote:
On 03/11/2025 23:37, olcott wrote:
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
It's the same D with different closure, when we're talking theory. It's
only a different D when we're talking ordinary programming where D is a
template for a running procedure and each time you call D you "get
another D".
Going with your closure terminology that includes parameters,
which I understand and don't mind:
On 11/2/2025 6:50 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-11-01 13:39:53 +0000, olcott said:
On 11/1/2025 4:51 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-31 12:21:55 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/31/2025 6:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-30 13:08:12 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/30/2025 5:10 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-29 16:41:32 +0000, olcott said:
On 10/29/2025 5:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
On 2025-10-28 09:41:56 +0000, joes said:
Am Sun, 26 Oct 2025 09:56:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:HHH does abort though and returns 1 to DD.
I don't think that is the shell game. PO really /has/ an H (it's
trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines that P(P)
*would* never stop running *unless* aborted. He knows and accepts that
P(P) actually does stop. The wrong answer is justified by what would
happen if H (and hence a different P) where not what they actually are.
*This is Claude AI summarizing my rebuttal of Ben's words* >>>>>>>>>>>And you think it’s impossible to programmatically determine that DD halts?
The philosophical point: A Turing machine decider should only be >>>>>>>>>>>> expected to report on properties determinable from its input. When the
halting problem construction makes the "actual behavior" >>>>>>>>>>>> dependent on the decider's output, it's asking the decider to report on
something outside its input - hence, a category error.
*Every* single program is decidable.
To determine that DD halts is not merely possible but easy. Just simulate
it until it halts (which doesn't take a long time) and there it is. The
same with any other camputaion that halts, though the time to find out
may be linger.
int D()
{
int Halt_Status = H(D);
if (Halt_Status)
HERE: goto HERE;
return Halt_Status;
}
H simulates D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
that calls H(D) to simulate D
until H sees this repeating pattern.
And what happens if it sees?
D simulated by H according to the semantics
of the C programming language until H correctly
determines that its simulated D cannot possibly
reach its own simulated "return" statement
correctly rejects D on this basis not some other
basis.
This is possible except the word "correctly". But that is not the
last thing that happens. Then H returns zero to its caller, which
in this case is D, and D returns the zero to the program that
called D. Because D halts the rejection by H is not correct, and
therefore we can observe that H is not a halt decider.
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
D simulated by H Not D executed from main()
There is only one D above.
Thousands of times I refer to D simulated by H
and despicably dishonest people use the despicably
dishonest tactic of strawman to refer to the directly
executed D as their rebuttal.
It is the same D. There is no other D above.
It is not the same D.
If you would work through the execution trace
rather than bet your own soul that I must be
wrong you would see this.
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